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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was dipping into AR15 today, and i saw (one i've seen before, and one that is totally new - and cool - to me) two products i thought you guys might wanna check out!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=299092

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=310274

Top one is the AR modular concept, currently for sale. kinda pricey as of yet.

bottom one is the Gas piston kit for converting a standard AR, from ARES DEFENSE. i had thought they were never actually going to produce them, but they are finally out i guess.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
i hate you.. really I do... words can't express how much I hate you. Here I am, trying to keep myself from thinking of new ideas for the AR because I've spent enough money recently as it is... and then you have to go post stuff like this.. damn you! lol
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
One of the FFL's here carries the Ares kit.
I think he said it's aroung $450. He says he has trouble keeping them in stock.

The only thing saving me from getting one is that it currently does not work with a free float tube. YET....
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Do they make one for mid length? If they don't, that will be one more thing stopping me from getting one anytime in the near future.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I read through the mod project and it would make more sense to me to buy another gun... I don't like "swapping" parts on my firearms.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
jeff221 said:
I read through the mod project and it would make more sense to me to buy another gun... I don't like "swapping" parts on my firearms.
+1

I am holding out for an HK 416. :)
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
To prevent the AR from crapping where it eats, basicly.
Specificly, to prevent the major flaw of the AR; the gas system blows dirty carbon residue back onto the bolt. Thus the requirement of having to keep AR's meticulously clean...
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
ScottyPotty said:
what is the advantage of the piston kit?
absolutely none. :rolleyes: there is nothing wrong with direct gas impingement systems. If you do some research, and a lot of reading....you will find that the people testing these products have found no real world benefits to the piston gas system.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The lower operating temps should extend bolt and carrier life plus the ease of cleaning would make it worth the cost in itself. I love the AR's but it is my least favorite rifle to clean.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
ARin said:
absolutely none. :rolleyes: there is nothing wrong with direct gas impingement systems. If you do some research, and a lot of reading....you will find that the people testing these products have found no real world benefits to the piston gas system.
You're right.....so how many countries use the diret gas system?? How many countries have moved to a piston op'd weapon system?? It makes life easier in the 'the real world' and make the weapon run cleaner, cooler, easier to clean by keeping the 'carbon fouling' out of the action. Now if only we'd swith to a good tapered case round, that forward assist would go away and make the EBR 'mo purdyful.......
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
einheit 13 said:
You're right.....so how many countries use the diret gas system?? How many countries have moved to a piston op'd weapon system?? It makes life easier in the 'the real world' and make the weapon run cleaner, cooler, easier to clean by keeping the 'carbon fouling' out of the action. Now if only we'd swith to a good tapered case round, that forward assist would go away and make the EBR 'mo purdyful.......
even the new special forces weapon, the FN SCAR is a op-rod rifle... actually, if memory serves, its got dual op-rods on either side... maybe that was another competitor for its contract.

i like the idea of less rotating mass, but it just doesn't work the way i want it to.

somebody used the phrase "[email protected] where it eats", i think that fits nicely.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
einheit 13 said:
You're right.....so how many countries use the diret gas system?? How many countries have moved to a piston op'd weapon system?? It makes life easier in the 'the real world' and make the weapon run cleaner, cooler, easier to clean by keeping the 'carbon fouling' out of the action. Now if only we'd swith to a good tapered case round, that forward assist would go away and make the EBR 'mo purdyful.......
And i ask you, how many countries have military superiority? OURS.


Im sorry, but how many times have you had an AR stop working because of action fowling? :rolleyes:
makes the weapon run cooler? where do you think the heat goes?
The direct impingement gas system DEALS with the heat BETTER by dispersing it. Not bottling it up in the piston system.

and how many times have you ACTUALLY had to use your forward assist??
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
ARin said:
And i ask you, how many countries have military superiority? OURS.define superiority....china, india, israel[everyone is a soldier], germany, russia.....soldier for soldier-small arms for small arms.....no uber tactial, heat seeking, laser guided, ballistic tipped, intercontinental ballistic torpedos......


Im sorry, but how many times have you had an AR stop working because of action fowling? :rolleyes: 7 times in one deployment, 2 tiimes from debris[dirt/sand/salt crust...i was a diver], 3 split gas tubes...don't even get me started on split bolt heads, gualed chambers.....spent a lot of time shooting them, cuss'n them, and CLEANING THEM.....
makes the weapon run cooler? where do you think the heat goes?
The direct impingement gas system DEALS with the heat BETTER by dispersing it. Not bottling it up in the piston system. look at the vents on the gas block, goes outside the weapon from the top, well ahead of the shooters faces, uses less gas to run it, deals with 'light' loads easier, gas travels 1/4 the distance, no more 'crust'.....its a better system. The last direct gas system issue weapon was the CZ 52 rifle, the VZ 58 went with the short stoke piston set up. Wonder why.....

and how many times have you ACTUALLY had to use your forward assist??
quite a few times, if it didn't need one, it wouldn't be there. Straight cased ammo doesn't chamber as easy as a tapered cased ammo, sorry- no one can argue that one. More tolerant of debris/fouling, easier to extract.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
jednp said:
i hate you.. really I do... words can't express how much I hate you. Here I am, trying to keep myself from thinking of new ideas for the AR because I've spent enough money recently as it is... and then you have to go post stuff like this.. damn you! lol
+1,000

:wink:
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
einheit 13 said:
quite a few times, if it didn't need one, it wouldn't be there. Straight cased ammo doesn't chamber as easy as a tapered cased ammo, sorry- no one can argue that one. More tolerant of debris/fouling, easier to extract.
ok, i cannot argue with the personal experience of someone who has "been there, done that".......

do you believe that grafting a piston onto the AR platform will cure all of these ills?
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Damn look at all the piston hating going on. ;)

You cannot deny that the AR was a great design but it does have flaws as any system does.

Personally I would love to have a piston driven AR just for the ease of cleaning.

The military use is even better as those guys need to rely on their weapons and they take way more abuse.

I didn't think much of the piston design until I saw the Futureweapons with the HK 416 and it is pretty impressive.

You would be surprised at home many Spec Ops groups are using them.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I personally believe a few things:

1. The complaints about the AR platform are over exaggerated by about 90% of the complainers.
2. There are short coming to every weapon platform in use by any military.. hence the variety.
3. Piston uppers are the next logical evolution for the AR series systems.

I haven't ever really had a catastrophic failure with any of the AR/M16 weapons I've used/owned/been issued. I've had jams, I've needed to clean, I've had bad ammo. I've never had a Bolt or the Carrier Group or Firing Pin fail or a gas tube for that fact. I also have less than 2000 rounds of experience with combat use of the M16A2. I've got maybe 90-100K (+/- 10K) worth of rounds down the pipe of the AR's I've shot in the last 10 years. Most of that being in the last 5 years and with 3 specific weapons, so really I just don't shoot them as much as some folks I know or know of.

My humble opinion and experience leaves me with a firm belief that I'd rather have an AR than an AK or FAL. Most of that I'm sure has to do with my faith in my ability to operate and put rounds on target with the AR better than the others. Is the AR the best weapon on the military market. I doubt it, but that doesn't imply that it is an inferior weapon system.

It does crap where it eats.. last I checked most do in one fashion or another. Is that a detrimental issue to the AR system, nope. Most of mine run well into the 1000rnd mark before I clean them. I'm sure they'll run longer than that in the environments I use them. But I'm not kicking in doors or chasing Hadji around mountain sides. If I were, I'd clean the hell out my weapon when given the chance.. some situations simply require more care and feeding than others.

I think there is definite value in by design piston uppers. I am not sure that anyone has really and truly adapted a piston system for the current AR iteration. I think weapons like the HK416, MagPul Masadi, FN-SCAR, XM-8 and others are the natural evolution and meeting point between the greater accuracy inherent in the M16/M4 and the overall greater durability of the AK. I believe when we look back at the longevity of the AR and AK systems we'll do so fondly and with an eye towards the huge step fowards that both provided.

In the mean time... man oh man do I really want a POF AR. I'd love to see a field report from folks out there chasing bad guys in theater on these systems. I think I'll take a browse over at lightfighter.net and see if anyone there has a comment or 3...

That's my .02 cents and yes, I would like my change :)
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Badshot said:
I think there is definite value in by design piston uppers. I am not sure that anyone has really and truly adapted a piston system for the current AR iteration. I think weapons like the HK416, MagPul Masadi, FN-SCAR, XM-8 and others are the natural evolution and meeting point between the greater accuracy inherent in the M16/M4 and the overall greater durability of the AK. I believe when we look back at the longevity of the AR and AK systems we'll do so fondly and with an eye towards the huge step fowards that both provided.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as82-e.htm
 
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