G
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·I am thinking about a varmint upper in 6.8 SPC and looking for recommendations.
+1for varmint I'd just stick with .223.
That was one kick ass rant!!! Well thought out and backed up with facts. This is exactly the kind of info that I am looking for when weighing my options.I still do NOT understand why so many people are all about the 6.5 Grendel and the .260. I have seen some claims about the 6.5 Grendel and the .260 saying that theyre both superior to the .308 in terms of wind drift, bc, kinetic energy, etc. I have even seen some articles like this http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-c...260-remington/ that are claming things like the .260 even puts the .300 winmag to shame. THIS IS HYPE AND COMPLETE BS. I will talk more about that issue in a sec.
I just wanted to start off this post by saying that I personally believe that there is WAY too much hype behind the 6.5 Grendel, .260 and the 6.8 spc. Now the 6.5 Grendel and the .260 are kind of a medium cartridge between the .308 and the .243. The 6.5 Grendel will fire some of the lighter bullets at a pretty decent speed. Chuck Hawk lists the 6.5 Gendel as firing a 100 grain bullet at around 2800 fps and 2850. http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5mm_grendel.htm . Some of the heavier bullets like 120 grainers have a muzzle velocity between 2530-2630 fps. (also on chuck hawks page). The funny thing about people that claim the 6.5 Grendel is so much better than the .308 dont take several things into account. The .308 will push a 150 grain bullet between 2980-2700 fps, depending on the load. http://www.pacinfo.com/~dropinsator/chart4.htm#308 Win . Even the military has loading of the 168 grain bullet that are traveling at least 2680 fps. (a moderate loading, not too hot). This means that the .308 will push a bullet that is 48 grains heavier than the 6.5 Grendel, exactly the same speed. Since they will have a very similar time of flight, because they have a similar speed; this means that IF they were the same weight of bullet, they would have similar wind drift. They do NOT have the same weight of bullet, and therefore, the .308 will have LESS wind drift than the 6.5 Grendel. With some of the lighter bullets, the 6.5 Grendel MIGHT have the same or less wind drift. Because they have very similar velocities, the drop on the bullets will be slightly different, but still pretty close.
There are basically 2 thoughts on wind drift. You can fire a light bullet extremely fast; which means that it has a short time of flight, and therefore less time for the wind to affect the bullet. You can also fire a heavy bullet a little slower; although it will have a longer time of flight, since the projectile is heavier, it will be more difficult for the wind to push it.
The .243 sometimes DOES have less wind drift than the .308, even at long distances because of how much faster the bullets are sometimes moving. People that will claim the 6.5 Grendel, .260 or 6.8 spc have better long range ballistics than the .308, etc, are only talking about the very light bullets that the .260, 6.5 Grendel shoot, and comparing them to the heavier bullets that the .308 is shooting. Keep in mind that just because the bullet has less drop, does not mean that it will be a better long range cartridge, it merely means that the bullet will shoot flatter.
Something else that I always hear from the 6.5 Grendel and .260 guys: the high BC bullets of these calibers dont slow down as quickly as the .30s (.308, .300 winmag, etc), and they claim that even if they start out at close to the same speed, the BC means at longer range the .30s arent going nearly as fast. For those guys that claim this, I have news for you, There ARE high BC bullets for the .30s as well, some that have MUCH better BCs than the 6.5 bullets. If I remember right, Lost River Ballistics (who got bought out by hooker I believe) had a 180 grain bullet that had a BC of something ridiculous like .89-90. I also think its funny how the guys that shoot 6.5mm Grendel or .260, like to compare the velocity of those rounds, against the .308 or .300 winmag out of a 24 barrel. You give a .300 winmag or a .308 a 26 barrel and some high BC bullets like 210 VLDs, 180-190 Lost River, or 155 Scenars, and the 6.5 Grendel and .260 wont even hold a candle to them. A .300 winmag will push a 180 grain bullet over 3,000 fps, and some of the 210 Bergers around 2700 fps. I assure you that the .260 cant touch that kind of velocity and weight of bullet, but the guys that are all about the .260 say that it does.
Please realize that I am NOT saying that the 6.5 Grendel or the .260 are bad cartridges. I am merely saying that I believe that some of these cartridges are a fad, and that some of the guys that like to play with these cartridges are making people believe that they are the cats meow, and people arent looking at the ballistics. Its fine if you want to have a caliber to play with that most everybody else doesnt, just realize it probably doesnt do anything special that other calibers cant. The .260 and 6.5 Grendel both have their place, and I personally believe thats right in between the .308 and .243. If you do not reload, I would personally stay away from the 6.5 Grendel, even if you do reload, Id probably still consider the .243 or .243 AI. I would take the .243 AI any day of the week against the 6.5 Grendel, just from how easily you can get components and loads for each. From what I have heard there is only 1-2 makers of brass for the 6.5. There is also a pretty limited choice of bullet weights and manufacturers of them. With the .243 or .308 there are MANY choices of quality brass manufacturers and bullet manufacturers. If you just want to play with the 6.5 Grendel, then go for it, I just dont want people expecting it to be the greatest thing in the world and beating the socks off of the .243 or .308, when it wont. The 6.5 Grendel will cost you more to reload and shoot, you will have less choices of bullets, etc, and I personally believe wont do anything special that others cant do. Just look at the numbers for yourself, make an educated decision, and dont buy into all the hype.
Lol, thank you very much Sharkbait, I'm glad that you thought it was kick ass. I'm sure there were alot of people here that didn't like the rant because many of them are probably fans of the .260 or 6.5 Grendel. I don't mean to offend those users, the .260 and 6.5 Grendel have their place. I just want new users who might not be aware of the capabilities of these cartridges to have knowledge about these particular calibers, not just that they're "awesome". I'm sure others will help you out on the compatible upper for your .223. I'm curious as to if you're buying an AR-10, why you're just limiting it to something that would work on your .223 lower, since there are uppers that will be able to work with your AR-10 that come in calibers like .243, etc. I like the .204, but I personally (me, maybe not others) prefer the .22-250 over it. The .22-250 shoots every bit as flat and fast, but with heavier bullets, and suffers from about the same rate of throat wear and ammunition is about the same price (only $2 difference per $20).That was one kick ass rant!!! Well thought out and backed up with facts. This is exactly the kind of info that I am looking for when weighing my options.
I am planning on buying a dedicated .308 AR, i am just thinking about a heavier caliber upper that will be compatible with my .223 lower.
I may or may not agree with your input. I haven't gathered enough info to decide yet but I always respect a well thought out position on any subject and facts to back up your position is even better. We all disagree at times but what I like about this site is that we can disagree like adults (most of us) and have a vitrual beer afterwardsLol, thank you very much Sharkbait, I'm glad that you thought it was kick ass. I'm sure there were alot of people here that didn't like the rant because many of them are probably fans of the .260 or 6.5 Grendel. I don't mean to offend those users, the .260 and 6.5 Grendel have their place. I just want new users who might not be aware of the capabilities of these cartridges to have knowledge about these particular calibers, not just that they're "awesome". I'm sure others will help you out on the compatible upper for your .223. I'm curious as to if you're buying an AR-10, why you're just limiting it to something that would work on your .223 lower, since there are uppers that will be able to work with your AR-10 that come in calibers like .243, etc. I like the .204, but I personally (me, maybe not others) prefer the .22-250 over it. The .22-250 shoots every bit as flat and fast, but with heavier bullets, and suffers from about the same rate of throat wear and ammunition is about the same price (only $2 difference per $20).
Just a word about the link that ichy posted. I'm not saying that the man's uppers aren't good or nice, but do a little research on those barrels. Shilen is known for producing very accurate barrels, and lots of BR guys use them. Just realize that some of those guys change their barrels every 500-800 shots (not all of them, but some). Sometimes if they don't like how they're shooting, they change them before that. In the long term, there are many people that believe some of the shilen barrels don't quite last as long as "they should" when you compare them with other barrel makers like Krieger, Lilja, Hart, Bartlein, etc. Typically varmint hunters want a barrel that will hold up to some pretty rapid firing, or at least hold up for quite a long time. Not busting on Shilen, they make fine barrels, I'm just saying do some research on the matter before you jump on top of those.
it has nothing to do with weight its BC which is related to weight but has other things involved.I still do NOT understand why so many people are all about the 6.5 Grendel and the .260. I have seen some claims about the 6.5 Grendel and the .260 saying that they’re both superior to the .308 in terms of wind drift, bc, kinetic energy, etc. I have even seen some articles like this http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-c...260-remington/ that are claming things like the .260 even puts the .300 winmag to shame. THIS IS HYPE AND COMPLETE BS. I will talk more about that issue in a sec.
I just wanted to start off this post by saying that I personally believe that there is WAY too much hype behind the 6.5 Grendel, .260 and the 6.8 spc. Now the 6.5 Grendel and the .260 are kind of a medium cartridge between the .308 and the .243. The 6.5 Grendel will fire some of the lighter bullets at a pretty decent speed. Chuck Hawk lists the 6.5 Gendel as firing a 100 grain bullet at around 2800 fps and 2850. 6.5mm Grendel . Some of the heavier bullets like 120 grainers have a muzzle velocity between 2530-2630 fps. (also on chuck hawk’s page). The funny thing about people that claim the 6.5 Grendel is so much better than the .308 don’t take several things into account. The .308 will push a 150 grain bullet between 2980-2700 fps, depending on the load. http://www.pacinfo.com/~dropinsator/chart4.htm#308%20Win . Even the military has loading of the 168 grain bullet that are traveling at least 2680 fps. (a moderate loading, not too hot). This means that the .308 will push a bullet that is 48 grains heavier than the 6.5 Grendel, exactly the same speed. Since they will have a very similar time of flight, because they have a similar speed; this means that IF they were the same weight of bullet, they would have similar wind drift. They do NOT have the same weight of bullet, and therefore, the .308 will have LESS wind drift than the 6.5 Grendel. With some of the lighter bullets, the 6.5 Grendel MIGHT have the same or less wind drift. Because they have very similar velocities, the drop on the bullets will be slightly different, but still pretty close.
There are basically 2 thoughts on wind drift. You can fire a light bullet extremely fast; which means that it has a short time of flight, and therefore less time for the wind to affect the bullet. You can also fire a heavy bullet a little slower; although it will have a longer time of flight, since the projectile is heavier, it will be more difficult for the wind to push it.
The .243 sometimes DOES have less wind drift than the .308, even at long distances because of how much faster the bullets are sometimes moving. People that will claim the 6.5 Grendel, .260 or 6.8 spc have “better long range ballistics” than the .308, etc, are only talking about the very light bullets that the .260, 6.5 Grendel shoot, and comparing them to the heavier bullets that the .308 is shooting. Keep in mind that just because the bullet has less drop, does not mean that it will be a better long range cartridge, it merely means that the bullet will shoot flatter.
Something else that I always hear from the 6.5 Grendel and .260 guys: the high BC bullets of these calibers don’t slow down as quickly as the .30’s (.308, .300 winmag, etc), and they claim that even if they start out at close to the same speed, the BC means at longer range the .30’s aren’t going nearly as fast. For those guys that claim this, I have news for you, There ARE high BC bullets for the .30’s as well, some that have MUCH better BC’s than the 6.5 bullets. If I remember right, Lost River Ballistics (who got bought out by hooker I believe) had a 180 grain bullet that had a BC of something ridiculous like .89-90. I also think it’s funny how the guys that shoot 6.5mm Grendel or .260, like to compare the velocity of those rounds, against the .308 or .300 winmag out of a 24” barrel. You give a .300 winmag or a .308 a 26” barrel and some high BC bullets like 210 VLD’s, 180-190 Lost River, or 155 Scenars, and the 6.5 Grendel and .260 won’t even hold a candle to them. A .300 winmag will push a 180 grain bullet over 3,000 fps, and some of the 210 Bergers around 2700 fps. I assure you that the .260 can’t touch that kind of velocity and weight of bullet, but the guys that are all about the .260 say that it does.
Please realize that I am NOT saying that the 6.5 Grendel or the .260 are bad cartridges. I am merely saying that I believe that some of these cartridges are a fad, and that some of the guys that like to play with these cartridges are making people believe that they are the “cat’s meow”, and people aren’t looking at the ballistics. It’s fine if you want to have a caliber to play with that most everybody else doesn’t, just realize it probably doesn’t do anything special that other calibers can’t. The .260 and 6.5 Grendel both have their place, and I personally believe that’s right in between the .308 and .243. If you do not reload, I would personally stay away from the 6.5 Grendel, even if you do reload, I’d probably still consider the .243 or .243 AI. I would take the .243 AI any day of the week against the 6.5 Grendel, just from how easily you can get components and loads for each. From what I have heard there is only 1-2 makers of brass for the 6.5. There is also a pretty limited choice of bullet weights and manufacturers of them. With the .243 or .308 there are MANY choices of quality brass manufacturers and bullet manufacturers. If you just want to play with the 6.5 Grendel, then go for it, I just don’t want people expecting it to be the greatest thing in the world and beating the socks off of the .243 or .308, when it won’t. The 6.5 Grendel will cost you more to reload and shoot, you will have less choices of bullets, etc, and I personally believe won’t do anything special that others can’t do. Just look at the numbers for yourself, make an educated decision, and don’t buy into all the hype.
Dunno about varmint but here's a couple of 6.8 options:I am thinking about a varmint upper in 6.8 SPC and looking for recommendations.
I still do NOT understand why so many people are all about the 6.5 Grendel and the .260. I have seen some claims about the 6.5 Grendel and the .260 saying that theyre both superior to the .308 in terms of wind drift, bc, kinetic energy, etc. I have even seen some articles like this http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-c...260-remington/ that are claming things like the .260 even puts the .300 winmag to shame. THIS IS HYPE AND COMPLETE BS.
Heck, you can read the article and see the exact numbers coming out of the ballistic calculator that show it:Compared to the venerable .300 Winchester Magnum's most common load - a 190-grain Sierra MatchKing at 2900 fps - the .260 has about 17% less wind drift and a few clicks less drop. Even though it shoots a 140-grain bullet, it still has 87% of the Magnum's energy at 1000 yards because its slim design yields a much higher ballistic coefficient (BC) value, so it retrains velocity longer. It also has 60% less recoil than the 300.
The .260 Remington blows .308 out of the water. It has 35% less wind drift and about 10 MOA less drop at 1000 yards than the standard 175-grain M118LR load. Despite a 35-grain deficiency in bullet mass, it has 31% more energy because it loses less along the way due to atmospheric drag, hitting 350 fps faster at 1000 yards.
The .243 sometimes DOES have less wind drift than the .308, even at long distances because of how much faster the bullets are sometimes moving. People that will claim the 6.5 Grendel, .260 or 6.8 spc have better long range ballistics than the .308, etc, are only talking about the very light bullets that the .260, 6.5 Grendel shoot, and comparing them to the heavier bullets that the .308 is shooting. Keep in mind that just because the bullet has less drop, does not mean that it will be a better long range cartridge, it merely means that the bullet will shoot flatter.
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 | YARDS
243 115 DTAC 0.585 3050 > 0.00 1.92 8.09 19.24 36.28 60.31 | wind (inches)
260 139 Lapua 0.615 2820 > 0.00 2.04 8.58 20.38 38.36 63.65 | wind (inches)
260 123 Scenar 0.540 3050 > 0.00 2.09 8.84 21.15 40.11 67.10 | wind (inches)
308 155 Scenar 0.508 2910 > 0.00 2.38 10.15 24.40 46.58 78.33 | wind (inches)
308 175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 2.79 11.94 28.88 55.48 93.43 | wind (inches)
308 168 SMK 0.46* 2700 > 0.00 2.98 12.98 32.15 63.10 108.09 | wind (inches)
243 70 NBT 0.310 3400 > 0.00 3.28 14.45 36.31 72.85 127.47 | wind (inches)
243 115 DTAC 0.585 3050 > -0.00 1.03 5.01 10.05 16.10 23.35 | drop (moa)
260 139 Lapua 0.615 2820 > -0.00 1.37 6.07 11.96 18.97 27.34 | drop (moa)
260 123 Scenar 0.540 3050 > -0.00 1.05 5.11 10.33 16.70 24.47 | drop (moa)
308 155 Scenar 0.508 2910 > -0.00 1.27 5.89 11.86 19.27 28.48 | drop (moa)
308 175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 1.75 7.52 14.99 24.38 36.21 | drop (moa)
308 168 SMK 0.46* 2700 > -0.00 1.68 7.39 15.00 24.93 37.99 | drop (moa)
243 70 NBT 0.310 3400 > -0.00 0.80 4.68 10.45 18.73 30.74 | drop (moa)
243 115 DTAC 0.585 3050 > 3050 2739 2447 2175 1922 1688 | velocity (fps)
260 139 Lapua 0.615 2820 > 2820 2537 2272 2024 1794 1582 | velocity (fps)
260 123 Scenar 0.540 3050 > 3050 2714 2400 2110 1842 1597 | velocity (fps)
308 155 Scenar 0.508 2910 > 2910 2563 2242 1947 1677 1441 | velocity (fps)
308 175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > 2650 2315 2007 1723 1469 1261 | velocity (fps)
308 168 SMK 0.46* 2700 > 2700 2329 1982 1658 1374 1159 | velocity (fps)
243 70 NBT 0.310 3400 > 3400 2786 2246 1775 1384 1116 | velocity (fps)
243 115 DTAC 0.585 3050 > 0.00 0.21 0.44 0.70 0.99 1.33 | time (sec)
260 139 Lapua 0.615 2820 > 0.00 0.22 0.47 0.75 1.07 1.43 | time (sec)
260 123 Scenar 0.540 3050 > 0.00 0.21 0.44 0.71 1.01 1.36 | time (sec)
308 155 Scenar 0.508 2910 > 0.00 0.22 0.47 0.76 1.09 1.48 | time (sec)
308 175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 0.24 0.52 0.84 1.22 1.66 | time (sec)
308 168 SMK 0.46* 2700 > 0.00 0.24 0.52 0.85 1.25 1.73 | time (sec)
243 70 NBT 0.310 3400 > 0.00 0.20 0.44 0.74 1.12 1.61 | time (sec)
Something else that I always hear from the 6.5 Grendel and .260 guys: the high BC bullets of these calibers dont slow down as quickly as the .30s (.308, .300 winmag, etc), and they claim that even if they start out at close to the same speed, the BC means at longer range the .30s arent going nearly as fast. For those guys that claim this,
If you ignore lathe-turned bullets which cost in the range of $2.0 per bullet and stick to conventional OTM designs like the SMK, Scenar, and Berger VLD, you have to step up to a 210gr VLD to exceed 0.60 BC in .30 caliber. If you could shoot this at 2450 fps, it would have almost the same wind drift @ 1000 as the 155gr Lapua Scenar shot at 2910 fps from the 308 (actually 3.5% less); however, because of its low muzzle velocity it has 31% more drop and an increased "drop rate".I have news for you, There ARE high BC bullets for the .30s as well, some that have MUCH better BCs than the 6.5 bullets. If I remember right, Lost River Ballistics (who got bought out by hooker I believe) had a 180 grain bullet that had a BC of something ridiculous like .89-90.
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 | YARDS
260 139 Lapua 0.615 2820 > 0.00 2.04 8.58 20.38 38.36 63.65 | wind (inches)
308 210VLD 0.631 2450 > 0.00 2.42 10.21 24.31 45.81 75.71 | wind (inches)
260 139 Lapua 0.615 2820 > -0.00 1.37 6.07 11.96 18.97 27.34 | drop (moa)
308 210VLD 0.631 2450 > -0.00 2.13 8.57 16.51 26.01 37.34 | drop (moa)
260 139 Lapua 0.615 2820 > 2820 2537 2272 2024 1794 1582 | velocity (fps)
308 210VLD 0.631 2450 > 2450 2197 1960 1740 1539 1363 | velocity (fps)
260 139 Lapua 0.615 2820 > 0.00 0.22 0.47 0.75 1.07 1.43 | time (sec)
308 210VLD 0.631 2450 > 0.00 0.26 0.55 0.87 1.24 1.65 | time (sec)
260 139 Lapua 0.615 2820 > 0.04 -0.05 -0.18 -0.33 -0.52 -0.76 | drop per yard (inches)
308 210VLD 0.631 2450 > 0.05 -0.08 -0.24 -0.45 -0.71 -1.04 | drop per yard (inches)
The reason is that the .308 case hits the sweet spot for case capacity for bore size ratio with a .264" bullet, not a .308 bullet. This is expressed in the data because you cannot get those high-BC .30 caliber bullets going fast enough from a .308; whereas the 6.5mm bullets are cooking along at a good clip. If you step up to the 300WM case size, you start to be able to take advantage of them.I also think its funny how the guys that shoot 6.5mm Grendel or .260, like to compare the velocity of those rounds, against the .308 or .300 winmag out of a 24 barrel. You give a .300 winmag or a .308 a 26 barrel and some high BC bullets like 210 VLDs, 180-190 Lost River, or 155 Scenars, and the 6.5 Grendel and .260 wont even hold a candle to them. A .300 winmag will push a 180 grain bullet over 3,000 fps, and some of the 210 Bergers around 2700 fps. I assure you that the .260 cant touch that kind of velocity and weight of bullet, but the guys that are all about the .260 say that it does.
By all means... look at the numbers.Just look at the numbers for yourself, make an educated decision, and dont buy into all the hype.
.........The reason is that the .308 case hits the sweet spot for case capacity for bore size ratio with a .264" bullet, not a .308 bullet. This is expressed in the data because you cannot get those high-BC .30 caliber bullets going fast enough from a .308; whereas the 6.5mm bullets are cooking along at a good clip. If you step up to the 300WM case size, you start to be able to take advantage of them.
If you can get a 210gr VLD going fast enough, it can break even or just beat the best 260 loads. In my comparison above, I was using my load of the 139gr @ 2820 fps. I know 260 shooters who are using the 140gr VLD at 2860 fps which provides identical wind and drop performance to a 210gr VLD shot at 2850 fps from a 300WM. But now we're comparing a a moderate to hot load in a magnum case burning 80 grains of powder to a short-action cartridge burning about 40. The 300WM load has 2.2x the recoil and gives exactly the same trajectory performance.
By all means... look at the numbers.
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