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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thanks to the election I've decided to start thinking about a defensive rifle just incase they do something stupid and I can't get one later.

Here's the pros I see for the AK It is relatively Cheap (local gunshop says that can get one in for around $500), not everyone shoots it here in the states, the fold a way stock would make it great for a pick-up gun. Bigger caliber than .223 Remington.

Pros for the 15: easy to work on, can customize to own taste, Low recoil

Cons for AK: Doesn't tear down as well as the 15,
cost of ammo, can't customize as well.

Cons for the 15-or the M-4: PRICE, I'm not sure I want to shell out more than a grand for a .223 Rifle,

Looking for your guy's $1.50 worth of advise, thanks.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
You can build an AR-15 yourself for under 750 easily and even get it down into the 600's. Its all dependent on what you want to do. I'm partial to the AR-15, but at the end of the day its up to you to define what feels good to you (ergonimics and so on).

First thing I would do is go handle both firearms at the store, because both feel quite different. Second I'd determine what I plan on doing with it (competitions?, just plinking?)

If you get an AR-15, the style you choose will soley be dependent on the purpose of the rifle. IE, you dont want to get an AR-15 carbine thats bone stock for competitions. If its just a throw around plinker you can easily build an AR-15 in the mid to upper 600's that will be quite reliable and accurate.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
nightraider said:
First thing I would do is go handle both firearms at the store, because both feel quite different. Second I'd determine what I plan on doing with it (competitions?, just plinking?)
That really is the answer, both are fine firearms and people are fiercely loyal to each of them, the AR works for me so that is what I have, spend some time with both of them and buy what you like!
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Well tear down on the AK IMO is a lot better than the AR models. In 3 moves you have the bolt and carrier out and a huge space in the reciever to work on. The AR lower reciever is thinner and harder to get into to clean/anything else. Plus the AK will eat wolf all day, and is way cheaper than .223, at least it was:confused:
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
To add options to your search (though it will possibly require a few bucks more)...

AR10/15/M4 can be had in .204 Ruger, .223 Rem, .243 Win, .260 Rem, 6.8 RemSPC, .308 Win, AND 7.62x39.

Price range varies from the $700 on up range depending on how many bells & whistles and what caliber.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
aequitasmurphy said:
Well tear down on the AK IMO is a lot better than the AR models. In 3 moves you have the bolt and carrier out and a huge space in the reciever to work on. The AR lower reciever is thinner and harder to get into to clean/anything else. Plus the AK will eat wolf all day, and is way cheaper than .223, at least it was:confused:
Huh? All it takes is one move to pull the AR-15's bolt out. Just pop the rear pin and pivot the upper, then the bolt comes right out. The AR-15 is extremely easy to work on compared to other guns out there.

Sure the AK will shoot Wolf, but its accuracy is going to blow with that ammo. There is a fine line between just wasting money on cheap ass ammo that never groups and spending at least a minimal amount for good ammo that groups well. .223 and 7.62 in my area are about equal in cost, however 7.62 comes on and off in waves of availability.

By the way, dont limit the AK to just 7.62, because its made in a variety of calibers, including .223.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
nightraider said:
Huh? All it takes is one move to pull the AR-15's bolt out. Just pop the rear pin and pivot the upper, then the bolt comes right out. The AR-15 is extremely easy to work on compared to other guns out there.

Sure the AK will shoot Wolf, but its accuracy is going to blow with that ammo. There is a fine line between just wasting money on cheap ass ammo that never groups and spending at least a minimal amount for good ammo that groups well. .223 and 7.62 in my area are about equal in cost, however 7.62 comes on and off in waves of availability.

By the way, dont limit the AK to just 7.62, because its made in a variety of calibers, including .223.
....................:twisted:...................;)............................:cool:..............
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
nightraider said:
Huh? All it takes is one move to pull the AR-15's bolt out. Just pop the rear pin and pivot the upper, then the bolt comes right out. The AR-15 is extremely easy to work on compared to other guns out there.

Sure the AK will shoot Wolf, but its accuracy is going to blow with that ammo. There is a fine line between just wasting money on cheap ass ammo that never groups and spending at least a minimal amount for good ammo that groups well. .223 and 7.62 in my area are about equal in cost, however 7.62 comes on and off in waves of availability.

By the way, dont limit the AK to just 7.62, because its made in a variety of calibers, including .223.
Yeah, one move after you have the AR already opened up, and it can be kind of a pain to get back in with the chargin handle. The AK is a little bit easier to take apart and put back together. It is much harder to clean in and around the trigger grouping on the AR than it is with the ak. And I have had nothing but good things with wolf ammo in my ak, it sure doesn't "blow" accuracy wise either. I get much better groupings with the ak and wolf ammo than I can get with my AR. But to each his own.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
aequitasmurphy said:
Yeah, one move after you have the AR already opened up, and it can be kind of a pain to get back in with the chargin handle. The AK is a little bit easier to take apart and put back together. It is much harder to clean in and around the trigger grouping on the AR than it is with the ak. And I have had nothing but good things with wolf ammo in my ak, it sure doesn't "blow" accuracy wise either. I get much better groupings with the ak and wolf ammo than I can get with my AR. But to each his own.
Then you need to get some Barnual. Barnual is beter than Wolf period. As a matter of fact I've had a 'shoot out' recently against an AR, they shot Wolf and so did I. He took the first 2 rounds. Then I switched to Barnual. I took the next 2. I gave him 100rds of Barnual to try out and he dumped Wolf except for goofing off doing 'tacticool gun games'....Barnual is cleaner, more accurate, and very consistent. Its also the only commercial 'military' ammo from Russia.the 'new' Wolf has switched to Barnuals specs via the help of Privi partizan of Yugo......ie Wolf Gold. After experimenting with numerous rounds, and I mean numerous, Wolf 'standard' is junk in calibres 9mm, 9x18, .223, 5.45, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, and .308. There is a very noticible difference between the 'Gold' line and 'standard' too..........but keeo shooting theWolf, that leaves the Barnual for me!

And just to be fair, I don't like 9mm Brown Bear either and neither does the XD.....
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Mike Russell said:
AR10/15/M4 can be had in .204 Ruger, .223 Rem, .243 Win, .260 Rem, 6.8 RemSPC, .308 Win, AND 7.62x39.
Almost forgot, you can also get it in .458 SOCOM, .22LR, 9mm, and I believe (not sure) .40 Smith. There might be some other conversions for other small calibers (maybe variations of the .22 or .17), but I'm not sure. The above calibers, with the exception of .22 LR (I've only seen conversion kits for that), are ones that you can purchase an AR in from a manufacturer. Plus you can always swap out top ends (barrel & bolts) and magazines to change calibers (except with the .308Win variants), kind of like tossing a .357Sig barrel into a .40Smith XD.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
An AK can be had in 5.45x39.5, .22, 5.56x45, .308, .30-'06, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, 8mm, 9x53R, 12ga, 16ga, .410. Special conversions are 9x18, 9mm, .45, 7.62x25.

direct fit rail systems



 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Dakotaranger said:
Cons for the 15-or the M-4: PRICE, I'm not sure I want to shell out more than a grand for a .223 Rifle,
You don't necessarily have to. These days the price for the ARs seems to have come down to very reasonable range. For example CDNN has Armalite AR Carbine for $699, the whole package. That's not much more than a quality AK like Arsenal. With this price you can get this AND a cheap Romania AK and still come in at around a grand. Best of both worlds. See, problem solved!:cool:
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
For price ideas, a Bushmaster with a 16in barrel and collapsable stock is $850 at our local Academy. I've seen DPMS rifles go for less at other dealers (mid to high $700s).

I've shot ARs and AKs. The AK is a nice "cheap" gun, but all that I've shot aren't as accurate as I'd like. I haven't shot any of the newer ARs, but I was somewhat pleased with those I shot years back (maybe about 10 years ago). I still prefer the M14 (though closer to the M25 variant, it or the Mossberg 590 were what I carried when we did boarding parties in the Navy) aka SA M1A, but that wasn't given as an option (and they're over $1000 easy). Top on my list was always the Rem700 and Win70. ;)
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
einheit 13 said:
FWIW, I like the AR180B beter than any other AR gun. My local FFL sells them for $625.
Yeah, the cheapest piston action AR variant. I've handled one in the gun show, quite simplistic like a AK and light.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Some interesting ballistic info I found on another site regarding the difference between the 7.62X39 and the .223 rounds.


The energies listed in any reloading manual that carries both calibers will show that the 7.62X39 delivers more punch at any range.

Example:
The 7.62X39 with 123 gr bullet 2400 fps has 1573 fpe at the muzzle and 660 fpe at 300 yds. The .223 with a 55 gr bullet at 3200 fps has 1250 fpe at the muzzle and 519 fpe at 300 yds. FPE is obtained by multiplying the velocity in fps squared by the weight in grains and dividing by 450,250. This last number varies depending on what source you get it from but the result is so close that it's not relevant.

However, if you forget the trumped up BS in the manuals that are mostly used for selling points and use a more realistic means to compare these two cartridges, you will find that 7.62X39 vastly exceeds the power levels of the .223. Granted the .223 is fast, flat shooting and accurate. Their bullets are light and expand violently, but that doesn't mean that they have any (I hate to use this term) knockdown power.

The formula that we use for a better comparison is called the Taylor Factor. The Taylor Factor uses the speed, weight AND diameter of the projectile to get it's answer. You multiply the weight in grains x velocity in fps x diameter in thousandths of an inch and divide by 7000. The result is not in pounds or anything else. It's just a reletive number.

By using this formula, you will find that the .223 using the load listed above will come up with 5.6 for its TKO at the muzzle and 3.6 at 300yds.
The 7.62X39 arrives at 13.1 at the muzzle and 8.5 at 300 yds.
That is a substantial difference when you consider theat a 185 gr. .357 mag is 10.5 at the muzzle and 6.9 at 300 and a 165 gr. .30-06 is 21.0 at the muzzle and 16.6 at 300.

Either formula that you use, the 7.62X39 significantly beats the .223. The only thing (in my opinion) that the .223 has going for it is that it's a NATO round and therefore easily obtainable and it's light so that you can carry lots of them (because you'll need to). I think that it is at it's best as a prairie dog cartridge.

Of course the 7.62X39 is also plentiful and still much lighter thatn the .308. My personal opinion is the the 7.62X39 is the perfect compromise between the power of the .308 and the light weight of the .223.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
aequitasmurphy said:
Yeah, one move after you have the AR already opened up, and it can be kind of a pain to get back in with the chargin handle. The AK is a little bit easier to take apart and put back together. It is much harder to clean in and around the trigger grouping on the AR than it is with the ak. And I have had nothing but good things with wolf ammo in my ak, it sure doesn't "blow" accuracy wise either. I get much better groupings with the ak and wolf ammo than I can get with my AR. But to each his own.
Like Einheit was saying, Barnaul, which is just slightly more expensive that Wolf is MUCH finer ammunition. With open sights I can get 2.5-3 inch consistent groups with Barnaul at 100. Wolf? Forget about it.

To the orinigal poster, go to TheBoxoTruth guys webpage, as they have a very good page dedicated to testing of Wolf ammo vs other brands. My results are quite similar to theirs.

Oh and dude, I don't know why you think getting the bolt back into the AR is hard, its quite easy.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
einheit 13 said:
An AK can be had in 5.45x39.5, .22, 5.56x45, .308, .30-'06, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, 8mm, 9x53R, 12ga, 16ga, .410. Special conversions are 9x18, 9mm, .45, 7.62x25.

direct fit rail systems
Put a folding stock on that baby and its a very sweet gun. I never understand why people like the AR collapsible stock so much. My AR-15 has one and I sure don't like it. One day it will be replaced by a folding skeleton stock.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
einheit 13 said:
FWIW, I like the AR180B beter than any other AR gun. My local FFL sells them for $625.
I never see AR-180's in my area, you're lucky. I think it kind of looks like the Robinson M96, which I've had the pleasure to shoot, amazing rifle, to bad the company doesn't support it much these days:

 
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