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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
the AR has been going for almost 50 yrs without being piston driven ;)
That's like the argument "well, rifles have been muzzle stuffers for centuries w/o being repeaters." You're denying a significant improvement in reliability and function? Yes the piston uppers throw some weird bbl harmonics in the equation and accuracy may suffer slightly, but the reliability is what most folks are after.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
the AR has been going for almost 50 yrs without being piston driven ;)
That's like the argument "well, rifles have been muzzle stuffers for centuries w/o being repeaters." You're denying a significant improvement in reliability and function? Yes the piston uppers throw some weird bbl harmonics in the equation and accuracy may suffer slightly, but the reliability is what most folks are after.
:rolleyes:

Did I say I wasn't for improvements ? Nope. But IMHO it no longer is an AR15, but a hybrid.

The OP wanted to know what "you guys thought", so I said what I thought :)
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
after more and more of these are made i will think about getting one but i bet these early versions have some problems.
we will see alot of these i bet the company i posted is backordered and wont take any more orders till these are filled so that goes to show that even these early versions are very popular
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I'd be more interested if you didn't have to use proprietary handguards. I'm sure their custom railed handguard won't be cheap.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
do they need proprietary handguards?

i thought the guys at Leitner-Weise made some that didn't need proprietary guards, only a different gas system, and B. Carrier, (maybe not even the latter)...

i know my bushy is totally different. its got a different gas block/piston housing to accommodate the system, instead of using a "captured-Spring/rod" type conversion, like i am sure LWRC uses on theirs.

i've heard good reviews about the Leitner-Weise though, you should check them out. forgive me for not giving a link, my google fu is vurrrry tired out today.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I haven't checked out any of the others, but the Black Lightning uses modified M4 handguards. They're apparently working on a railed version as well.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Since pistons are relatively new, I'm not against them. Just waiting to see how well they fare. Just like with anything new. As one user mentioned, "reliability is what most people are after", I know for me with the AR, accuracy was more important, followed by costs and what others had to say about brand X Y & Z before deciding on one or the other, since most of the major manufacturers are all reliable.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I know that you can get an upper from Bushmaster or a whole new AR with the piston system. If I had the money I would do it tomorrow.

Funny, about 18 months ago on a different forum I was derided for predicting that the piston system would start to become more and more popular. Many suggested it would just be a fad and would go the way of the 10mm pistol. Now it seems more and more manufacturers are paying attention. Seems that once the spec ops and Seal's purchased them for use the rest of the industry followed what HK started.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
There was a Unit in Iraq a while back that got investigated for killing people, execution style, one 5.56 to the head. It was one of the first units to have all ACOGS (families supplied half of them apparently) +174 head shots in one time outside of being supervised investigators took twenty minutes to say not one was shot under 50 meters (those were the ones shot to hell by burst and SAWs usually from an angle where the marines where kneeling/prone) with the piston, would this be plausible, if not, I don't want one, maybe for the guys that clear rooms, but not the rest.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
1. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Piston upper for the AR is the evolutionary path the AR platform will follow.

2. The concern over odd barrel harmonics is not something that is affecting at typical engagement ranges of both the 14.5" (MIL issue M4) or 16" weapon. What is the typical engagement range? Sub 200m, typically stated by the military as 50-150m.

Yes, the typical AR configured for long range engagement (SPR and DSM rifles w/ 18-20" barrels) there will be some degree of impact if a Piston was to be utilized. But that is not the case for the Military configured weapon. Gas blowback systems will be continued in that role so long as the AR platform is utilized.

3. POF and LWRC filled the gap that H&K so blatantly created when it refused to sell to the US civilian market. Shame on H&K, for that, I won't even consider buying a 416 or 417 upper.

Other companies have created replacement options (such as those listed throughout this thread) and some such as Robinson (XCR), MagPul (Masada) and a few others have completely moved away from the AR total form and have simply utilized the best portions of the AR and or utilized AR basic geometric standards (Mag well, trigger and grip/grip angle, ect..) Regardless, all of these systems are designed around a Piston system that will allow for the best of the AK and AR systems while incorporating the latest materials, metals and production sciences.

I'm personally leery of the the drop in piston systems because they seem extremely half baked and marketed towards those in the civilian market who just don't know any better.

The dedicated uppers are going to be far more stable (harmonics wise) because they have the additional design considerations incorporated.

The Piston system "solution" is little more than a way to extend the already sunsetting life cycle of the AR platform. It's old, still fairly effective, but there are several systems coming into maturity that finally exceed the capability and functionality of the AR. The Military is obviously taken this to heart, hence the SCAR and XM-8 programs. Coupled with the wide acceptance of the G36 series by European military and security entities, yet another blow has been made to Gas Operated systems in the grander scheme.

I love my AR's, always will. It is the weapon that saved my life when I needed it and I will always have several. But I am a realist as well. The AR is in the twilight of it's useful role in the world of small arms. Much as the AK-47, the AR will become and typical 3rd world Military and Police weapon, while 1st world Militaries and Security organizations will adopt more modern constructions like the G36, SCAR, Travor (SP) and what ever that new Chinese bullpup is called.

Point being, sure, the Piston upper is a pretty solid design, but it is most likely the last major evolution in a very long and relatively stagnate design and use cycle of the AR platform.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
+1 Piston driven AR's are the future.

For the most part AR's are good enough, but I want better. I love the DI of the AR, it is very accurate, and for me it is very reliable. I have even gone as much as 1000 rounds before a clean.

But Pistons are just inherently more reliable and can run dirtier and go longer without a clean. I got a issue of Special Weapons and there was a snippet in it where a POF 415 went 25,000 rounds without a clean.

Piston Weapons of the Past and accuracy of Pistons:
All you have to do is look at the past to see how reliable Piston driven systems are. Weapons such as AK's and FAL's are famous for their ability to just function no matter what. Where the FAL and AK fall short is the accuracy and ergonomics. There is a combination of things why the AK is not accurate, such as the sites, and the 7.62x39 round itself. But the FAL shoots the same 7.62 NATO round that my M1A shoots. With Federal Gold Medal match ammo my FAL gets 2.5 MOA 5 shot groups where my M1A is sub MOA all day long.

The DI system is inherently more accurate because of less moving parts. My AR is pretty accurate right out of the box. With match ammo it does about 1.5" and with Wolf it does 3-4." But my Piston Driven Robinson Arms is just as accurate as my AR. So it seems like these new breed Piston Weapons such as the HK416, Masada, SCAR, and Robinson can be just as accurate as a DI AR, but with the benifit of running dirtier and longer between cleans.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
+1 Piston driven AR's are the future.

For the most part AR's are good enough, but I want better. I love the DI of the AR, it is very accurate, and for me it is very reliable. I have even gone as much as 1000 rounds before a clean.

But Pistons are just inherently more reliable and can run dirtier and go longer without a clean. I got a issue of Special Weapons and there was a snippet in it where a POF 415 went 25,000 rounds without a clean.

Piston Weapons of the Past and accuracy of Pistons:
All you have to do is look at the past to see how reliable Piston driven systems are. Weapons such as AK's and FAL's are famous for their ability to just function no matter what. Where the FAL and AK fall short is the accuracy and ergonomics. There is a combination of things why the AK is not accurate, such as the sites, and the 7.62x39 round itself. But the FAL shoots the same 7.62 NATO round that my M1A shoots. With Federal Gold Medal match ammo my FAL gets 2.5 MOA 5 shot groups where my M1A is sub MOA all day long.

The DI system is inherently more accurate because of less moving parts. My AR is pretty accurate right out of the box. With match ammo it does about 1.5" and with Wolf it does 3-4." But my Piston Driven Robinson Arms is just as accurate as my AR. So it seems like these new breed Piston Weapons such as the HK416, Masada, SCAR, and Robinson can be just as accurate as a DI AR, but with the benifit of running dirtier and longer between cleans.
I can't help but read your posts with an Eric Cartman voice in my head! I laugh every time.
 
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