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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
:D ok, so i dont have enough for a class III, although theres a nice colt for around $17,500 at my gun club that i try to drool about whenever i get a chance. i have already told my wife to expect me to spend at least $2500 maybe $3500-4 grand. i want to get an AR and AK decked out with enough parts to fix it a few times over, if it all possible. the AR will hold all the bells and whilstles so to speak, the AK in excellent condition and with some tac modifications if possible.;)

so here is my biggest problem. first can this be done on that budget, while maintaining excellent peices of hardware?:?

what are the best companies to buy from? i have some tech skills and could have my cousins put them together when they get back from iraq, but id rather get a "package" of some sort, then add the $$ stuff like an eotech and lights, lasers and the such. so thats where i am looking for now.

some have said to get a couple of AR's and an AK and mini Uzi. i dont think i could get all of that for that $$, but let me know if im wrong!:confused:

finally, caliber. i really like the 6.5 or 6.8 mm, but im afraid they may try to ban them along with the assault rifles because hunting rifles arent in that cal. is ths correct thinking or not? i know that size is more $$ for ammo but it will give me the AR with better performance.:confused:

otherwise would a .7.62 or 5.56 be better to make shots a little further out?
these will be my wife and i's main long weapon if we were out camping or during some type of emergency. also have a mossy 500 pistol grip that would come along as well. so whats my rambling questions answers?:confused:


oh and if they are available i will be getting night vision gear once finished with this, and then body armor, but who knows could be vice-versa. i figure that would cover us if we had to bail the area for some reason. it'll all get packed into Kifaru packs and such. anyone familiar with this gear-looks great.:cool:

sorry for the length.and if you cant tell my smilies are pretty confused!

thanks
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
IMO, the one of the best features of the AR15 is its near universal standard parts, you loose allot of that when straying from 5.56. As well the cost of the rifle system goes up the more exotic the round you get. Troops in Iraq have pretty much abandoned the 6.8 in favor of the 77 grain 5.56 commonly called MK262 MOD1, it has proved to be just as good as the 6.8 while retaining all the standard AR15 parts and magazines.

With that kind of cash you can get a real nice AR with some frills and possibly some decent glass, though good glass will cost a bunch.

Me personally would fallow these instructions
There seems to be a large number of threads from patriots that are seeking to purchase/build an AR type rifle in some configuration. This post will provide most of the answers to those frequently asked questions.

No doubt this post will be somewhat controversial – as I will invariably step on toes in this process – and for that I apologize up front – but also note that I will not compromise my personal integrity by “holding back” on the truth.

Obviously this post will be focused on “tools” that one could trust one’s life too – this post will not cover AR’s that could be used as “toys” (fun guns for plinking/hunting/target shooting/etc.)

We will start with the characteristics of what it is we are looking for in an AR tool – then we will discuss the manufacturers that are making what we want – followed by those that are making close to what we want. If the manufacturer is not listed in this post – I will not trust my life to it – PERIOD. ALL other manufacturers – make “toys”.

The three MOST important parts of the AR are the barrel, bolt and bolt carrier. Consider this – the chamber pressure in an AR when it fires is 50,000 PSI – that is TWENTY FIVE TONS of pressure per square inch - and this is near your face! We only want the highest quality parts to contain those high pressure explosions that occur every time we touch off a round.

OK – the barrel assy. We want:

1. Barrel made from 4150 steel
2. Chrome lined chamber and bore
3. 5.56mm chamber
4. Manganese Phosphate coating under the front sight base
5. Forged front sight assy
6. MagParticle inspected
7. 1x7” twist

The Bolt:

1. Buy the bolt from one of the Tier Three or above manufacturers listed below.

The Bolt Carrier:

1. MagParticle inspected
2. Covered Firing Pin
3. Solid “rear”
4. Properly staked gas key
5. Chrome lined “cylinder” (where the gas rings on the bolt interface with the bolt carrier)

Upper receiver:

1. Forged 7075 T6 construction (not cast)
2. Mil-Spec “true” M1913 rails (if flat top)
3. Mil-Spec anodizing AFTER M4 ramps are cut
4. Mil-Spec small parts (forward assist, ejection port cover, etc.)

Lower receiver:

1. Forged 7075 T6 construction
2. Mil-Spec internals (no “target” or “match grade” parts)


Now let’s look at manufacturers. There are only TWO manufacturers that are independently checked/tested to ensure they build “mil-spec” M series longarms (M16A2 and M4). These two manufacturers are Colt and FN. The US government inspectors ensure they build rifles to the spec.

There are other manufacturers that build to the “mil-spec” – but they do so willfully – and are not independently inspected to the spec. Some manufacturers build to the exact spec – some build to portions of the spec – some don’t build to the spec at all.

The first category is what we will call TIER ONE manufacturers and are the ONLY two that build to the spec and are independently verified. They are:

1. COLT (only the military/LE rifles – the civy “Target” models are not built to the spec)
2. FN

Then next category is “Tier Two” - those manufactures that build to the exact spec – but aren’t verified by US gov inspectors:

1. LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool)
2. BMC (Bravo Machine Company)

Tier Three are companies that build to the spec – but don’t shoot a “proof” round through each barrel before it is MagParticle inspected – they MagPart inspect a percentage of barrels from each lot.

1. CMMG

Tier Four companies build close to the spec – but don’t have 1x7” barrel twist – don’t shoot a proof load through each barrel (they – like CMMG above – inspect a percentage of barrels from each lot) and don’t Manganese Phosphate coat the barrel under the front sight base:

1. Bushmaster

These other manufacturers use sub-standard barrel material (4140) – chambers that may or may not be 5.56 – in short – they are rifles that are build under the standard. Having said that – these “Tier Five” companies do build some quality rifles – just understand – that according the “Spec” – which is how we must judge AR’s – these are further “sub-par” than any of the Tier Four and up. The following companies are not listed in any particular order:

1. Armalite
2. Stag Arms
3. Smith and Wesson (Stag)
4. CMT (which makes Stag and S&W)
5. Rock River Arms (RRA)
6. DPMS

Then there is the Tier Six companies – which I wouldn’t recommend to anyone. The Tier Six companies are any AR manufacturer that is not listed above. Note that many “parts house’s” use AR parts made by one of the above manufacturers – but they also buy parts made from “who knows??” – and is not something I would willingly put my life on the line with…..would you??

So – armed with the above information – I would suggest the following. Buy the assembled upper from any of the Tier Three and up manufacturers.

Buy ANY stripped lower receiver made by any Tier 5 and above manufacturers.

Get all lower receiver parts (actually all small parts) from any Tier 5 and above manufacturer.

Buy bolts/bolt carriers/barrels from any Tier Three and above manufacturer.

If you prefer to go down to your local gun store and just buy a rifle – the only real choice to buy a rifle closest to the “Spec” is our only Tier Four manufacturer – which is Bushmaster.

RRA, Armalite, Stag, et al – all build quality rifles – but they aren’t built even close to the same standard that the Tier Three (and arguably Tier Four) and above companies do.

Hope this helps,

cheers

tire iron
Now as far as the AK goes, I would buy a second AR15 and enjoy the fact that all parts, magazines, sights, ammo, training, and knowledge will carry over to either rifle.

I would build one KISS(Keep it simple stupid) basically A2 14.5 ultralight 1/7 twist barrel, perm flash hider, 6 position stock, PRI big latch, Ambi safety and tritium night sights.

the other I would set up flat top, 14.5 ultralight 1/7 twist perm flash hider barrel. 6 position stock, ultra light railed freefloat, flip up back up rear sight, standard front sight, PRI big latch, Ambi safety, some sort of grip(whatever you like), a forward grip, a flashlight that will also function on your pistol. And for the optic, ACOG, EOtech , or better.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
thanks for relaying the info. very helpful. i am curious as i hear a lot about the guys in the sand box having to put multiple rounds on target to actually make the kill because of the small 5.56, no? i heard that most patrols and such have both thier M-16's and something that throw some 7.62 down range also because of this.

since im in phoenix i want something that will go bang every time, and i heard that the AR's can be finicky in the sand if not religously cleaned. that was why i was going to go with an AK as well. also lets me have a little 7.62 to put down if it was ever needed. ***DISCLAIMER: i do not expect and certainly wish that nothing will happen that will have us all out there having to really use these, and i dont have Rambo dreams, just an boy scout, not now of course, and former pack leader, i believe in being prepared*** whats the diff between an a-2 and ar-15?

i also had someone tell me that you couldnt get your hands on colt right now because of the war. i dont see them at the gun store, except the one or two that are class III.

i do appreciate the idea of having two rifles so that one is able to be canabalized if need be. but they would have to break a lot as i do plan on getting plenty of spare parts as the ban seems to be looking like they might make the parts illegal also, rendering evryones useless eventually.

whats a better optic than eotech or ACOG? and why?

why a 1/7 istead of 1/9 or something else? just more standard or?

what is the average range on the ones you listed? i want to be able to reach out and touch someone before than can do it to me, in a SHTF scenario?

maybe set one up for longer range and one for "urban" and CQC?

the reason for the body armor and night vision is because i have a nreve condition that keeps my body from being able to regulate its own temp real well, so if it was summer and we had to bail on foot(though the new tundra with the offroad package and a slight lift should get us somewhere) night travel would be the only way i could make it far enough north to get a little cool down, and thats a long way!!

body armor is mostly because i dont feel like having holes in you is real healthy..
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Why not get an AR15 (5.56) and an AR10 (7.62). They'd both fit within your budget (if you shop around). You could setup the AR15 for close quarters work (EOTech/iron sights) and the AR10 for the long range stuff (good glass). That way you get the best of both worlds, and you can stockpile mil-surp ammo to your heart's content.

As a side note, I don't put much stock in the whole "tier" thing. I've peiced together a couple ARs myself with parts from various manufacturers. I'd bet my life on them any day.

DPMS LRT-SASS: MSRP $2104

DPMS Panther Classic: MSRP $814
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
thanks for relaying the info. very helpful. i am curious as i hear a lot about the guys in the sand box having to put multiple rounds on target to actually make the kill because of the small 5.56, no? i heard that most patrols and such have both thier M-16's and something that throw some 7.62 down range also because of this.
Yes some guys in Iraq are using the 308, this is because there job is task specific. 308 as a very loose rule has a better ability to resist the effects of outside forces at longer range 400+. It is heavier then the 5.56 that most all soldiers carry so it tends to be more stable and less effected by wind drift and such.

You will hear many stories both for and against any given round be it 308 or 5.56, there is only one universal truth despite what round you shoot and that is shot placement. Its a pretty heavily discussed but little understood subject and its full of worthless opinion based more on emotional biased then fact. The mechanics of each bullet greatly effect how that bullet preforms at a given distance, given speed , and given condition, there are far to many variable to ever say one is better then the other and to do so would be nothing but non factual based opinion. IMO these is the last subject you should look at or consider when buying or choosing a rifle, unless it is a task specific rifle, that is as long as they are in the realm of common combat rounds.

since im in phoenix i want something that will go bang every time, and i heard that the AR's can be finicky in the sand if not religously cleaned. that was why i was going to go with an AK as well. also lets me have a little 7.62 to put down if it was ever needed. ***DISCLAIMER: i do not expect and certainly wish that nothing will happen that will have us all out there having to really use these, and i dont have Rambo dreams, just an boy scout, not now of course, and former pack leader, i believe in being prepared*** whats the diff between an a-2 and ar-15?
Now I can only speak from my personal use and observations but I believe the AR15 in its current state of development is as good a combat rifle as is available. I have personally toucher tested a few of my AR15s to great extent. I currently have about 2000 rounds on my AR without so much as a drop of oil. It has been buried in snow and left to freeze, buried in gravel, buried in mud and still has crusty mud all over it, I have had maybe 3 times that I had to push the forward assist. Basically its good enough for combat use, again you will hear all kinds of crap about the AKvs the AR and many stories and opinions, again many of them are based not on fact but on emotional bias and have very little truth what s ever. IMO it is safe to say that both the AK47/74 And AR15/Variants are reliable, nothing more needs to be aid on that subject of reliability.

Now given the weight of the 7.62X39 compared to the 7.62x51 , I would rather have the extra range the 308 offers over the 7.62x39 for darn near the same weight and recoil.

An A2 is a M16A2 , the military rifle version of the AR15, fixed stock, carry handle, 20in barrel.

M4 is the carbine AR15, Flat top , 6 position stock, 14.5 in barrel with a step down to attach the M203 grenade launcher.

i also had someone tell me that you couldn't get your hands on colt right now because of the war. i dont see them at the gun store, except the one or two that are class III.
All class 3 machine guns were imported and made before 1986 as the ban on them began then and there are none available to anyone but dealers made after that date. You can still find colts but there numbers are lower now due to the war effort.

i do appreciate the idea of having two rifles so that one is able to be canabalized if need be. but they would have to break a lot as i do plan on getting plenty of spare parts as the ban seems to be looking like they might make the parts illegal also, rendering evryones useless eventually.
Don't forget that the training time spent with one would carry over to the other. I'm not saying that the AR is better or worse then any other rifle , but it dose have every modern feature I look for in a combat firearm, its light, has the best sights on any combat rifle, has a ambidextrous charging handle, all the controls are easy to get to with either hand shooting from either side. Once you get in to real rifle use be it competitive or combat the features you want become apparent, if you look in the hands of most any police , FBI, soldier, three gunner , or other competition shooters you will see the AR15.

whats a better optic than eotech or ACOG? and why?
Well these are both great optics but there are other out now that offer all the features of the ACOG and EOtech plus some extra. There are scopes now that go from 1x to 5x offering what both the ACOG and AimPoint offer in one package. There are sights that are basically like a EOtech that can magnify the reticle to help reach out. Remember that the military is usually several steps behind the tip of the spear cutting edge guys, not that its worth anything. Short dot type optics currently being used by spec opps and private contractors wont make it to regular troops hands for several years.

why a 1/7 istead of 1/9 or something else? just more standard or?
All military AR15s are 1/7 twist, this was done so that they could shoot the longer tracer rounds. What has come to happen though is a bullet was developed with the ability to do near what the 6.8 could do out of a 223. The result was a MK262 MOD1 bullet, a 77grain boat tail open tip or hallow point, the bullet has a super thin jacket and fragments out to a much greater distance then the 55 grain, and the 62 grain don't even fragment like it should IMO a total failure.

what is the average range on the ones you listed? i want to be able to reach out and touch someone before than can do it to me, in a SHTF scenario?
Well there is reports of the MK262 taking out targets at 800 yrads, and its effect on close range targets is much greater.

maybe set one up for longer range and one for "urban" and CQC?
This is a decent option

My ma pouch carrier has body armor integrated in it, I use it every time I shoot or take a class.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hooz said:
Why not get an AR15 (5.56) and an AR10 (7.62). They'd both fit within your budget (if you shop around). You could setup the AR15 for close quarters work (EOTech/iron sights) and the AR10 for the long range stuff (good glass). That way you get the best of both worlds, and you can stockpile mil-surp ammo to your heart's content.

As a side note, I don't put much stock in the whole "tier" thing. I've peiced together a couple ARs myself with parts from various manufacturers. I'd bet my life on them any day.

DPMS LRT-SASS: MSRP $2104

DPMS Panther Classic: MSRP $814
The tier thing is his personal opinion based on his actual combat experience, the fella that wrote it has his own forum and is pretty much the real deal from spec opps to private contracting. With that said for people like you and me it really don't matter, but if I knew I was going to enter combat with a rifle I would buy the best as he suggest. His information on spec and quality is top notch correct now the personal opinion on what your life is worth is just that personal opinion. I had several lesser quality rifles that worked 100% and I had total faith in, I sold them and bought the upper tier rifle uppers. As long as you test it and it proves reliable i would have no fear, but given price not being an object I would buy the better rifle.

The AR10/AR15 combination sounds much better then the AK/AR IMO.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
For your needs I think a 1 in 9 twist is fine.

I own a Bushmaster Patrolman A3 which I love and I got it for $900 plus tax. I have done alot of mods to it though.

For $1200+(not positive) I think the S&S M&P is really balanced and it already has a nice quad rail with flip up iron sights.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=44934&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=33803&isFirearm=Y

For fun and SD the Eotech is better suited then the Acog and way cheaper. You can always buy a scope for long range fun with the money you save.

I use ARMs mounts so I can swap between optics on my A3.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
whats the big difference between 1:9 and 1:7, i know the round is spinning faster or whatever but what would be the reason for the difference?
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
You can shoot heavier loads with the faster twist rate. 69-77 grain bullets. Most of the stuff in stores range from 50-62 grain and would be fine with a 1:9

And do buy into the tier thing either, it's all opinionated. It's generally laughed at by all but the Colt coolaid drinkers.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
i am reading about a system that is supposed to let you easily convert from 5.56 to 7.62 and eventually 45ACP, 9x19, .40 s&w, 22LR and .22 magnum. is this type system reliable and useful. i'm thinking that it would be great to be able to go from 5.56 to .22LR for a survival situation. the system is by MGI, called the Hydra Modular weapon sytem (MGI-QCB).

ideas?

and thinking about getting one ar now so as to be able to better know what i want/need before any ban. hopefully there will be no ban but im not counting on that, and all it covers is rediculous. anyway, just to have time to get used to it before i buy another and all the parts to fix anything for the next ten years at least.

thanks for the help guys!
 
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