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Discussion Starter #1
Passed on from ArizonaShooting.com;

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4715584613657367622&q=ar15+full+auto+torture&hl=en

G.S.E. took their select fire AR-15 out for an over 1000 round torture test.

Every 300 or so rounds the gun was thrown into sandy water.

It is one continuous video showing how well it held up.

To me this is not new, but a lot of people think only AKs can deal this kind of torture and run.

I shot 2,000 rounds out of my AR over a span of a year and did not clean it. I cleaned it out and then over a span of another year I shot another 1,000 rounds. It did not jam even once.

Granted I did not toss the gun in sandy water, nor shot this in one day.

But the crud build up did not ever make the gun jam once.

The trick is ARs have too many companies making parts and sometimes some parts dont fit quite right together. This can make for a jamster.

Also there are too many people using crap aftermarket mags.
On top of this, used USGI mags are not always 100% in working condition.

The aluminum mags can damage easier than AK mags, but a correctly built AR will run all day with new USGI mags. 20 rounders work the best in my opinion.

Anyways, this might comfort some AR owners to see that the worry of getting a little sand or dust in their AR should not make it jam as long as the gun is built right in the first place parlied with use of correct magazines.

I have seen a few new made AKs with their share of problems too.
Most new gun problems are the need for breaking in. The thick finish seems to be the culprit. The guns are made right, but the bolt is slowed by the thick finish which causes jams.


A lot of people also are very upset that the M-14 was replaced by the M-16. The problem is, the M-14 is too hard for most to control effectively on full automatic. As a semi-auto they are great, but the need for automatic fire is therefore eluded.

Here is a video of the M-14 vs. M-16: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4weIh3Mc6kU

It also shows how the original 55 grain bullet had no problems in stopping power. It was it's ability to tumble that turned this light bullet into a heavy wound.
 
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Discussion Starter #3
Comparing apples to oranges! The M-16 as manufacured now is very good at working in adverse conditions, so is the AK and the M-14. The ak is designed to be cheaply made and work in all types of environments, therefore accuracy suffers. In most hands it is a 200 yards and less firearm. The M-16 is a 350-400 yard rifle for a trained shooter. The M-14 full auto feature is not for general issue, but is limited to a few weapons in each unit for use by designated automatic riflemen. The M-60 MG replaced the M-14 on full auto. In semi-auto the M-14 is accurate for a trained shooter to about 900 yards. The reason for the change was not bcecause of ease of use in full auto, but for the logistics of carrying more, lighter, smaller ammo.
As a rifleman, I prefer an M-14. I don't mind the extra weight and I love the 500 yards of stand-off range. I can shoot you, you cannot shoot me.
The shorter, handier M-16 works well in jungle environments. The M-14 shows its advantages best in open terrain.
That is why so many M-14s are being used in Iraq/Afghanistan. Also, some of the 5.56 squad automatic weapons are being replaced by heavier 7.62 SAWs.
Just one grunt's professional opinion.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
That AR-15 has been used to take out bad guys at 800+ yards with correct ammunition.Ill agree that the 308 is better suited to the task, but a 50bmg is even better suited, as long as it kills with a well placed shot the rest is Internet fluff. I have personally been able to drop 30 rounds on a Paper plate from 500yards with a 16in AR15 carbine open sights, it will out shoot most shooters and kill at ranges greater then most can shoot.
I find the Ergonomics and easy manipulation of the carbine AR to be its best points, I don't care what it shoots. The M14 is a boat oar, but is well suited as a special purpose rifle IMO basically replacing the bolt action. I have high hopes for the new Kel-Tec rifle it may bridge the gap so to say.

The AR15 is reliable,unless you like the AK47 and then it jams every shot:rolleyes:
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Not all AR's are created equal. I trust Colt and LMT and other Tier one companies. If an AR is properly maintained it will be very reliable.
Pat
 
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Discussion Starter #6
beaterar said:
That AR-15 has been used to take out bad guys at 800+ yards with correct ammunition.Ill agree that the 308 is better suited to the task, but a 50bmg is even better suited, as long as it kills with a well placed shot the rest is Internet fluff. I have personally been able to drop 30 rounds on a Paper plate from 500yards with a 16in AR15 carbine open sights, it will out shoot most shooters and kill at ranges greater then most can shoot.
I find the Ergonomics and easy manipulation of the carbine AR to be its best points, I don't care what it shoots. The M14 is a boat oar, but is well suited as a special purpose rifle IMO basically replacing the bolt action. I have high hopes for the new Kel-Tec rifle it may bridge the gap so to say.

The AR15 is reliable,unless you like the AK47 and then it jams every shot:rolleyes:
What ever....I'd like to go head to head with you at 500yrds with my AK74. i bet you will be pleasently suprised that it and I can do everything you and your AR can. Sure its no tack driver, but neither are issue M16s, chamber it in x39 and see what happens. Its more of the round than the gun, place a target at 100yrds and shoot 10 from your AR and 10 from my AK-bet you won't be able to tell whose target is whoes-done it many time to prove that point. Hitting a target at 800+ yards doesn't say much, any weapon can get out that far. The .223 has under 700p/e out that far and is basically 'ineffective' at that range without specialty ammo.

I've seen that video before. I want to see them do that with muddy/silty water. Even AKs in .223 will suffer stoppages from debris in the chambers. Its the case, not the weapon. ARs have come along way, I still don't like them, the closest I'll ever get are my AR180s. Everyone has a story of 'my Ar will do this....and hasn't been cleaned in 10,000rds...." Big deal, ARs need a little more maintinance, period, that fact you cannot argue. And when all is said and done, no more ammo is availible...I grag my AK by the barrel and bust you in your head, you will find out in short order that the AK reigns supreme....unless you have an M14.....:cool:
 
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Discussion Starter #7
einheit 13 said:
What ever....I'd like to go head to head with you at 500yrds with my AK74. i bet you will be pleasently suprised that it and I can do everything you and your AR can. Sure its no tack driver, but neither are issue M16s, chamber it in x39 and see what happens. Its more of the round than the gun, place a target at 100yrds and shoot 10 from your AR and 10 from my AK-bet you won't be able to tell whose target is whoes-done it many time to prove that point. Hitting a target at 800+ yards doesn't say much, any weapon can get out that far. The .223 has under 700p/e out that far and is basically 'ineffective' at that range without specialty ammo.

I've seen that video before. I want to see them do that with muddy/silty water. Even AKs in .223 will suffer stoppages from debris in the chambers. Its the case, not the weapon. ARs have come along way, I still don't like them, the closest I'll ever get are my AR180s. Everyone has a story of 'my Ar will do this....and hasn't been cleaned in 10,000rds...." Big deal, ARs need a little more maintinance, period, that fact you cannot argue. And when all is said and done, no more ammo is availible...I grag my AK by the barrel and bust you in your head, you will find out in short order that the AK reigns supreme....unless you have an M14.....:cool:
:lol:

Fantastic.
 
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Discussion Starter #8
einheit 13

I wasn't dogging the AK, I was saying that most people who use the AK will claim that the AR15 is a Jam prone weapon. I have to shot the AK47 not 74 out to 400 yards with minute of bad guy accuracy. The same goes with AR users, they will claim the AK is less accurate. I think you totally misunderstood what I was saying.

As to the threats at the end of your post just grow up.:rolleyes:
 
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Discussion Starter #9
einheit 13 said:
What ever....I'd like to go head to head with you at 500yrds with my AK74. i bet you will be pleasently suprised that it and I can do everything you and your AR can. Sure its no tack driver, but neither are issue M16s, chamber it in x39 and see what happens. Its more of the round than the gun, place a target at 100yrds and shoot 10 from your AR and 10 from my AK-bet you won't be able to tell whose target is whoes-done it many time to prove that point. Hitting a target at 800+ yards doesn't say much, any weapon can get out that far. The .223 has under 700p/e out that far and is basically 'ineffective' at that range without specialty ammo.

I've seen that video before. I want to see them do that with muddy/silty water. Even AKs in .223 will suffer stoppages from debris in the chambers. Its the case, not the weapon. ARs have come along way, I still don't like them, the closest I'll ever get are my AR180s. Everyone has a story of 'my Ar will do this....and hasn't been cleaned in 10,000rds...." Big deal, ARs need a little more maintinance, period, that fact you cannot argue. And when all is said and done, no more ammo is availible...I grag my AK by the barrel and bust you in your head, you will find out in short order that the AK reigns supreme....unless you have an M14.....:cool:
General issue AR's will usually group between 1 and 2 moa. Typical AK's that I have owned will group around 4 (the very best) to 6 moa or worse. Also the fact that the AK has crappy sights unless you get optics for it. The AK is fine for non-trained peasant troopers. But for professional soldiers the AR is far better. AR's do need more maintence big deal they can actually hit what their aimed at past arms reach.
Pat
 
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Discussion Starter #10
beaterar said:
einheit 13

I wasn't dogging the AK, I was saying that most people who use the AK will claim that the AR15 is a Jam prone weapon. I have to shot the AK47 not 74 out to 400 yards with minute of bad guy accuracy. The same goes with AR users, they will claim the AK is less accurate. I think you totally misunderstood what I was saying.

As to the threats at the end of your post just grow up.:rolleyes:
Its not a threat, its a fact of life.....what would hurt worse- a hit with a wiffle bat AR or a steel triangle folder from an AKS?? I know you weren't dogging the AK and I wasn't dogging the AR. The AR is a more jamb prone weapon unless you maintain it, hence the more maintinance it needs over the AK. 1/3 is the weapons fault in design, 2/3 is the cartridge and mag design. Quit being so sensetive....;)
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Alaskapopo said:
General issue AR's will usually group between 1 and 2 moa. Typical AK's that I have owned will group around 4 (the very best) to 6 moa or worse. Also the fact that the AK has crappy sights unless you get optics for it. The AK is fine for non-trained peasant troopers. But for professional soldiers the AR is far better. AR's do need more maintence big deal they can actually hit what their aimed at past arms reach.
Pat
I agree , and to add the ar is the most use friendly weapon to date. All the controls are easy to get to with either hand while shooting from either left or right side. The length of the stock is adjustable to allow one to get in the modern combat stance , it has a Pistol type mag well that allows you to slam a mag in with little effort, has just about the best sights ever made on a combat rifle, its light enough to carry all day, it easire to clear a type 1,2,and 3 malfunction.

No its not a base ball bat, but if I wanted a bat i would buy a Louisville slugger not a firearm.
 
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Discussion Starter #12
einheit 13 said:
Its not a threat, its a fact of life.....what would hurt worse- a hit with a wiffle bat AR or a steel triangle folder from an AKS?? I know you weren't dogging the AK and I wasn't dogging the AR. The AR is a more jamb prone weapon unless you maintain it, hence the more maintinance it needs over the AK. 1/3 is the weapons fault in design, 2/3 is the cartridge and mag design. Quit being so sensetive....;)
The AR is more jamb prone. What is a jamb? As for the AR it does take more maintance but it gives you a lot more rifle and the 5.56 is the better round. As for magazines there are some great new mags like HK mags and Magpulls new P mag that is as good as any AK mags.

P Mag video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BA-EdEAHVA

Thats the AK74 wound profile.

Here is a M193 5.56 wound profile. The new MK 262 77 grain load is even better.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Alaskapopo said:
General issue AR's will usually group between 1 and 2 moa. Typical AK's that I have owned will group around 4 (the very best) to 6 moa or worse. Also the fact that the AK has crappy sights unless you get optics for it. The AK is fine for non-trained peasant troopers. But for professional soldiers the AR is far better. AR's do need more maintence big deal they can actually hit what their aimed at past arms reach.
Pat
Really, so you have seat time behind a brand spanking new Ishmash AK, I doubt it. My kit built (by me) 1994 issue Bulgarian AKS-74 will group just fine. Who really cares that you can get a group that small...you can't do it when some ones shooting at you. Learn to shoot the weapon, yes the sight distance on an AK is shorter...yes its notch and post, but I grew up on notch and post rifles, they work, as do peep sights. Don't an optic anymore than most AR shooters do....

I like the 'professinal soldiers' comment.....I guess that Poles, Bulgarians, Russians, Finns, Slavs, aren't professional then........You look at the worlds 'volunteer' /'paid' armies.......how many carry M16s?? Less than you think....
 
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Discussion Starter #14
AK are more reliable, and easier to keep so than the AR-15. The AR-15 is easier to shoot well. A well trained soldier can keep an AR-15 running all day, and hit tagets effectively with an AK. But in the hands of not-so-well trained soldiers only the AK is effective as the AR-15 demands a trained soldier to keep it running. Cleaing the Bolt carrier group is not intuitive, or easy, and if careless, itty bitty parts can get lost easily.

I've never cleaned an AK, but I have seen people do it, and it sure looked at lot easier.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
einheit 13 said:
Really, so you have seat time behind a brand spanking new Ishmash AK, I doubt it.
Frankly an AK is an AK is an AK. It was fine for what it was intended for but its not in the same class as an AR. And when people are shooting at you the only thing that will save your ass is being able to hit them before they hit you. That means accuracy and shotplacment my friend. An the AK does not excell at that outside of very short ranges.
Pat
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Alaskapopo said:
Frankly an AK is an AK is an AK. It was fine for what it was intended for but its not in the same class as an AR. And when people are shooting at you the only thing that will save your ass is being able to hit them before they hit you. That means accuracy and shotplacment my friend. An the AK does not excell at that outside of very short ranges.
Pat
The AK-107 should have a lot less recoil, and enjoys a decent rep. Not that yu can buy one, but it sure looks nice.
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Alaskapopo said:
Frankly an AK is an AK is an AK. It was fine for what it was intended for but its not in the same class as an AR. And when people are shooting at you the only thing that will save your ass is being able to hit them before they hit you. That means accuracy and shotplacment my friend. An the AK does not excell at that outside of very short ranges.
Pat
Have you ever fired at some one with an AK?? Do you have ANY seat time in a hot zone with either weapon where there is a trained 'professional' soldier on the other end trying to kill you?? I have, and have used both guns.

I like the bullet wound comparisons.....now, since the 5.45 does not come in a frag design, and all milspec 5.45 has a lead topped steel core, there is no way it can frag. The 5.45 7N10, 7N14, 7N21, and 7N22 all penetrate like the old SS109, start thier yaw cycle effectively at a 2.75" average, 7N22 does penetrate the body armour of the current US soldier 80% at 450m, and the 7N22 moves off centre of impact up to 9" in the thickness of the human body. I have seen a 5,45 imact on a human that entered above his right nipple and exited the centre of his lower back beside disc L2. This soldier bled to death because of the damage to his organs and severe hemmeraging(sp). The shot was straight on from 230ms on him, he was standing still beside a APC in Srebincia in 1993. Ballistic charts are great, real life experiances rule. I guess if the guy would have turned sideways, the inaccurate AK would have missed him, huh....and if it had been an AR, maybe he would have exploded from that bullet........
 
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Discussion Starter #18
This thread was not meant for AR vs. AK. I only posted it to show that an AR is more reliable than they get credit for...
 
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Discussion Starter #19
An AK is not an AK. All are somewhat different, and quality of production really shows. The Yugo M95A is awsome, with the Beryl from Poland right behind it, both in 5,56. Everything from Bulgaria and Russia in 5,45. Galils and Valmets come in there too in .308 and x39. then come the Chinese and German. Romania comes up last. While looking the same on the outside, alot of things are different, trunion lenth-thickness, barrel thickness-contours-twist rate, bolt carrier deminsions, controls......then come the AK 'knock offs' from Sweden, Switzerland, India, S. Africa, Brazil, Japan, Argentina, France.....just about every country has used or is using Mr.Ks brainchild of simplicity and reliabilty in one form or another......
 
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Discussion Starter #20
PackerfanXD said:
This thread was not meant for AR vs. AK. I only posted it to show that an AR is more reliable than they get credit for...
You're right, on both aspects......I'm sorry and i'm done....
 
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