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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
the people that actually need this mod to make their rifles more reliable are VERY FEW and FAR BETWEEN the ones that do it just to be "Tacti-cool"
why wouldn't you want your rifle as reliable as possible? You obviously don't plan to use yours for self defense.

Thats like saying adding an intake to your SVT will help HP and fuel economy, but most people only do it to be cool. Why wouldn't you want more horse power and better fuel economy?
 
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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
This thread deserves a sticky in order to
gather information which should/would/can
help all we AR affectionatos.

When it runs a course, a couple of months
or so, I will then put it back into the regular
thread flow.

For the record, I have not had an issue...
yet.

Ed
Significant data can hardly be obtained by the handful of AR enthusiasts on XDTALK.
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Thanks for the PDF doc. That doc said the breaking point of an M4 bolt was about 10k rounds for a mildly use M4 with short gas system (mild here meaning semi auto firing mostly). I never knew where people got this info from but I heard a lot of reputable people say it so I just assumed it to be true. One guy told me it is about the end life for a Bushmaster bolt, but turns out is true even for Colts. Moral of the story? Keep a spare bolt. :smile:
Yup, and some go way before 10k.
 
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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
So basically somebody got their feelings hurt by "the chart" it seems. I'm not sure how or why this became a sticky.

People like to feel good about their purchase, you inform them that their pick may not be the best, they then tend to become defensive. Put whatever parts you like in your AR. However don't try and prove why certain parts aren't necessary.

All guns are used differently. Sure, the person plinking at the range WILL tend to have many rounds on a cheap bolt/BC. However, going through a rifle class on a hot summer day, and dumping a thousand rounds in a day or two is another story. Not to mention sustained fire and heating the bbl extensively. All these things come into play.
:mrgreen:
 
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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
So basically somebody got their feelings hurt by "the chart" it seems. I'm not sure how or why this became a sticky.

People like to feel good about their purchase, you inform them that their pick may not be the best, they then tend to become defensive. Put whatever parts you like in your AR. However don't try and prove why certain parts aren't necessary.

All guns are used differently. Sure, the person plinking at the range WILL tend to have many rounds on a cheap bolt/BC. However, going through a rifle class on a hot summer day, and dumping a thousand rounds in a day or two is another story. Not to mention sustained fire and heating the bbl extensively. All these things come into play.
If the first sentence is asking me a question, no I don't get my feelings hurt by the chart. Why would I? It's reference material, nothing more- nothing less.

I will say it isn't the be all end all conversation stopper though.

From my viewpoint, there are a lot of reasons people buy AR's. It's not only about zombies coming after everyone all the time and that is probably the hardest for me to comprehend the whole mindset of anyway. But believe it or not, a lot of folks buy AR's for other reasons than chasing after roving bands of corpses across the countryside. I'll just leave that task up to whatever weapon playstation issues me.

Hunting, and enjoyment and modularity is what I personally look for in an AR15 and almost any brand AR will do that really well right off the shelf, and I'm sure there are many who'll (hopefully) never have to pull the trigger on anything besides a piece of paper. As for those needing to have a rifle you can depend on during an assualt going in harm's way and spending more on it to get the features you want, there's nothing wrong with that either. But there's no written law that says everyone has to have certain features to have a good reliable gun.

If mil-spec is what you're going after (which is a large determining factor for the requirements listed in the "chart"), there's not a lot of options out there in the AR15 platform without sucking it up and spending around $8000-$10,000 or more to have that, but then the designation will change to M16 instead of AR15.

I only know 1 way to say this and I'm sure I'll get flamed for it, but AR's inherently are not mil spec by definition no matter how bad you want it to be, or how closely you build or buy it trying to copy that.

I'm sure each of us has our own way of looking at things, but that doesn't make either of us wrong for it I guess. But here's how I see it. If you wanna buy what you think the ultimate AR15 is to give to me, then you can make that decision for me. I don't think I've ever told you what to buy, or asked what you think about what I buy. You pay for it, then you'll have the final say of what I have. Until then, we'll agree to disagree.
 
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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Zombies :rolleyes:

Mil-Spec :rolleyes:

I just want the best my money can buy. :cool:

If Joe Blow comes on here and has no clue what to buy, but that he wants it for possible SHTF among other uses, then I'll tell him to buy the best. I wouldn't sugguest buying something cheap if you may one day be defending your or your families life with it.

The MSRP between a DPMS AP 16" in 5.56 or an Oly K3B M4 and a LMT M4 16" is $45 ;)
 
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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
People like to feel good about their purchase, you inform them that their pick may not be the best, they then tend to become defensive. Put whatever parts you like in your AR. However don't try and prove why certain parts aren't necessary.

All guns are used differently. Sure, the person plinking at the range WILL tend to have many rounds on a cheap bolt/BC. However, going through a rifle class on a hot summer day, and dumping a thousand rounds in a day or two is another story. Not to mention sustained fire and heating the bbl extensively. All these things come into play.
i average 1000k rounds of .223 and 5.56 on most outdoor range trips and around 400 on indoor range trips (got bad lungs can't take breathing in all the lead) and ive never had no breakage and no malfunctions on my Del-Ton complete upper.

haven't put that many through my Stag yet at one time but no problems with that either. i doubt that the factor of sustained fire will be an issue for 99% of AR owners. the probability of an assault on ones home lasting longer than 5 minutes is about 1 and a billion unless you plan on taking on the government like at ruby ridge or waco and if that is the case im afraid the best AR in the world won't help you.

Yup, and some go way before 10k.
and some of the TOP names can go just as easily after all they are still man made and subject to Flaws in craftsmanship thats why even colt Offers a warranty.

Zombies :rolleyes:

Mil-Spec :rolleyes:

I just want the best my money can buy. :cool:

If Joe Blow comes on here and has no clue what to buy, but that he wants it for possible SHTF among other uses, then I'll tell him to buy the best. I wouldn't sugguest buying something cheap if you may one day be defending your or your families life with it.

The MSRP between a DPMS AP 16" in 5.56 or an Oly K3B M4 and a LMT M4 16" is $45 ;)
funny i just paid $325.00 for my complete LMT lower MSRP on it was over $400 I can get a DPMS complete Lower for around $250.00 and that is just the lower so are we talking about only the Bolt being $45 more if so in the long run for how the average person is going to use their rifle DMPS and LMT should not really be a concern as they are not going to be out firing 1000 round a day out of it.

I believe the point of this thread is that basically an AR is going to be An AR buy it shoot the Sh1t out of and when a part breaks replace and repeat. I would have no issues using either of My ars to defend my home neither of them have given me any reason to doubt their functionality.

now once i get my LMT finished it would be my first choice for defending my home but not because i don't trust my other rifles but rather because i am going to have it registered as a SBR and plan on putting a suppressor on it. one factor that many people fail to consider is that when the SHTF you likely will not have time to grab hearing protection and an AR (especially a SBR) is a pretty loud weapon which is why i am choosing to put a suppressor on it
 
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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
funny i just paid $325.00 for my complete LMT lower MSRP on it was over $400 I can get a DPMS complete Lower for around $250.00 and that is just the lower so are we talking about only the Bolt being $45 more if so in the long run for how the average person is going to use their rifle DMPS and LMT should not really be a concern as they are not going to be out firing 1000 round a day out of it.
The prices I quoted were right off of DPMS website and the LMT website.

DPMS
Online Store — DPMS: AR-15 Rifles, Parts and Accessories. sale price $899

LMT will be a few links since they don't show a complete rifle.

lower
Lewis Machine & Tool Company :: www.lewismachine.net $330

upper
Lewis Machine & Tool Company :: www.lewismachine.net $677

total $1007........shoot me I forgot the CH and handguards the other day:p

Sure you can probably find better prices than these, just as you did on your lower, and I did on my LMT upper, just as you can probably find a DPMS for lower than $899. My whole point is that for a few $ more why not get the best you can ?????

Sure anything man made can and will break.
LMT's bolt is tested, is DPMS's ?
LMT's is actually cheaper than the DPMS :shock:

That's all from me.................
 
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Can't stress enough to own a spare Bolt (or better yet, a spare BCG).

Even bolts from the best manufacturer will break. From the PDF doc in this link, you can see the Army replaces the bolt at much less than 10k rounds to prevent this from happening. Here is another interesting thread from that other forum:

AR15.COM :: Forums :: My M16 bolt exploded today...
 
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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
A bushmaster bolt that took a crap at 1200 rounds. Some how I aint surprised. :)
Actually it was a Bushmaster M16 bolt, and the guy did say he bought it used, it crapped out about 1200 rounds for him in Full Auto.

Now in general, Bushmaster do not ship full auto M16 bolts with their rifles. If you go semi auto, your bolt life increases 2-3 times. Also Bushmaster has excellent customer service, so if you do get premature wear, they will make it right. All Bolts are prone to failure, that is the design flaw of the AR.
 
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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Yeah I'm just giving you guys a hard time. No telling how many rounds it had prior to the failure.
 
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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Actually it was a Bushmaster M16 bolt

Now in general, Bushmaster do not ship full auto M16 bolts with their rifles. If you go semi auto, your bolt life increases 2-3 times.

All Bolts are prone to failure, that is the design flaw of the AR.
A bolt is a bolt, no difference in them between AR15 and M16, the carrier is what is different ;)
 
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
why wouldn't you want your rifle as reliable as possible? You obviously don't plan to use yours for self defense.

Thats like saying adding an intake to your SVT will help HP and fuel economy, but most people only do it to be cool. Why wouldn't you want more horse power and better fuel economy?
+1 Excellent post. You get what you pay for.
Pat
 
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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
never witnessed, seen or even really anecdotally heard of carrier failure ever.

BOLT failure on the other hand, while i have not had a bolt fail personally...i have seen many fail at classes, or brought into the shop for repair. Bolt lug and cam pin hole primarily.

Henderson Defense AR15's will most likely be carrying a LIFETIME bolt breakage replacement guarantee here in the near future. We are considering including a lifetime LPK parts guarantee also.

We are still a few months off from turning out HDI factory AR's in quantity, but they will be TOP quality, and we are having our parts manufactured to our own rigorous specs.
 
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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
I'm just curious if anyone can provide evidence of a failure that cannot be attributed to neglect ???
 
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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Well, I bought a used bolt/carrier assembly with a 20inch A2 barrel assy (Colt mfg) many years ago. About three thousand rounds later, while cleaning and inspecting, I found a radial crack where the cam pin fits into the bolt head. It was where the ridge forms a 'belt' around the bolt.
 
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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Well, I bought a used bolt/carrier assembly with a 20inch A2 barrel assy (Colt mfg) many years ago. About three thousand rounds later, while cleaning and inspecting, I found a radial crack where the cam pin fits into the bolt head. It was where the ridge forms a 'belt' around the bolt.
While serving, during weapons cleaning after range days, and after assaults (if given the time), your inspection of your weapon included LOOKING at your bolt. If you found your bolt to have any deformations/cracks/broken locking lugs you were to report it, and get a replacement from the armorer. Anyway, in our Company, only 1 bolt was ever replaced due to a "ridge" that formed at the cam pin hole. Good luck, or grace, or just quality steel kept our weapons rocking. You can't make a machine failure proof, but proper preventative maintenance (cleaning) will definitely help.
Point being, I'm sure there has been a bolt failure out there, maybe even gas rings worn to the hilt, but the carrier itself is a hard thing to beat down.

Anyway, cool discussion. Hope we can get some pics!!!
 
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