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m16 bolt carrier in an ar15 build. Legal?

20551 Views 42 Replies 0 Participants Last post by  Mercmar, 
G
I was told that colt is selling M16 bolt carriers on their civilian AR15's.

a little help on this subject. from what i gather on the net. it has been beaten into the ground with discussion, but no definate answers.
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G
They are legal. SOME parts companies won't sell them to you out of pure whimpiness.
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G
The BCG doesn't make it a machine gun, why would the part be illegal?
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G
The position of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobaco And Firearms
(ATF) is that if your AR15 type rifle contains even (1) one

M16 component, it is a Machine Gun.

Of the five part components which make this difference
are the hammer, safety selector lever, trigger, disconnector
and the BOLT CARRIER! Does that cover it?

Ed
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G
Ed Ely said:
The position of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobaco And Firearms
(ATF) is that if your AR15 type rifle contains even (1) one

M16 component, it is a Machine Gun.

Of the five part components which make this difference
are the hammer, safety selector lever, trigger, disconnector
and the BOLT CARRIER! Does that cover it?

Ed
Click to expand...
WRONG answer ;)
Several companies ship complete AR's with M16 carriers


http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=341156
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G
This is right from the horse's mouth at
Colt. I just called and talked to a CSR
by the name of Paul.

For questions, additional information or any other issues, please contact us at:


COLT'S MANUFACTURING COMPANY LLC
Customer Service Department
P.O. Box 1868
Hartford, CT
06144-1868 U.S.A.

Tel: 1-800-962-COLT
Fax: (860) 244-1449

COLT'S MANUFACTURING COMPANY LLC
P.O. Box 1868
Hartford, CT
06144-1868 U.S.A.

Tel: (860) 236-6311
Fax: (860) 244-1442

CMC
2 Talcott Road
West Hartford, CT

Paul said that Colt is shipping the M16 bolt carrier
in all their 'Match Target' AR15s. However, he said that
the factory was machining the pin slot of said carrier
before it the left production area for installation in the
designed 'Match Target' rifles. That of course means that
the assembly cannot be used as a MG part. He said that
all of the 'Match Target' rifles come with the M16 bolt carrier
(modified).

I did not call but one other AR15 manufacturer, Bushmaster,
which their stance is exactly as I stated above.

Now, I have to ask:

What would make the difference in using a modified
M16 bolt carrier vs. the standard civilian version which
is installed in the other AR15 machines that Colt builds
and sells?

Ed
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G
In reading the NFA, I would concur with Ed; M16 bolt carrier is listed as one of the "registered" items under NFA.
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G
Legal. Bravo sells them. " LMT Bolt Carrier Groups - Auto "
Note the "auto" designation.
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G
Ed Ely said:
This is right from the horse's mouth at
Colt. I just called and talked to a CSR
by the name of Paul.

For questions, additional information or any other issues, please contact us at:


COLT'S MANUFACTURING COMPANY LLC
Customer Service Department
P.O. Box 1868
Hartford, CT
06144-1868 U.S.A.

Tel: 1-800-962-COLT
Fax: (860) 244-1449

COLT'S MANUFACTURING COMPANY LLC
P.O. Box 1868
Hartford, CT
06144-1868 U.S.A.

Tel: (860) 236-6311
Fax: (860) 244-1442

CMC
2 Talcott Road
West Hartford, CT

Paul said that Colt is shipping the M16 bolt carrier
in all their 'Match Target' AR15s. However, he said that
the factory was machining the pin slot of said carrier
before it the left production area for installation in the
designed 'Match Target' rifles. That of course means that
the assembly cannot be used as a MG part. He said that
all of the 'Match Target' rifles come with the M16 bolt carrier
(modified).

I did not call but one other AR15 manufacturer, Bushmaster,
which their stance is exactly as I stated above.

Now, I have to ask:

What would make the difference in using a modified
M16 bolt carrier vs. the standard civilian version which
is installed in the other AR15 machines that Colt builds
and sells?

Ed
Click to expand...

Thanks, Ed.
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G
SA-XD4ME , the attachment below is about as definitive as it is going to get.

For those that think (unmodified) M16 carriers are legal in an AR15, you're wrong. Ed nailed this one.

Though a carrier alone doesn't make it an auto, the ATF says you can't do it. This is straight from the Federal Firearms manual. If you would like more information, I can give you the volume and page number to go along with it if you wish to check for yourself.


Here's a link that shows the difference between a semi auto and full auto carrier.
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=42
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G
"Paul said that Colt is shipping the M16 bolt carrier
in all their 'Match Target' AR15s. However, he said that
the factory was machining the pin slot of said carrier
before it the left production area for installation in the
designed 'Match Target' rifles. That of course means that
the assembly cannot be used as a MG part. He said that
all of the 'Match Target' rifles come with the M16 bolt carrier
(modified)."


Colt continues to neuter their "Match Target" rifles that they market to us "civillans" :roll: i.e. pinned M4 stock, compensator instead of a FH, no bayo lug.
Call back and ask about the LE line up :wink:


http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/partsfaq.msnw

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=121010

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-66150.html

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1975


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G
I still think a determination and a ruling are 2 different things. The attachment I added above is actually dated AFTER the letter.

2005-26th Edition (ATF Publication 5300.5, Revised August 2005).

Though I don't disagree that an 16 carrier would change nothing, if you read the letter closely, they are just tap-dancing around the answer and even says they can't specifically authorize him to install one.

The above letter is what is commonly referred to as a determination letter. If there were some sort of ruling, I would feel much more comfortable with recommending it. Until then, I think it's best to stick with what's on the books.
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G
Perhaps this documentation will help -

http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps41631/2005/p53004.pdf

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

Bookmarks are encouraged.

Ed

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G
This has been beaten to death with no 100% answer. NFA states that the bolt carrier is a machine gun part.

A BATF tech states that as long as it doesn't shoot fully automatic, then you're ok.

Truthfully, the BATF tech's interpretation of the law is only good for the individual it was written for. The rest of us still need to deal with a judge and constructive intent.

Along with a bolt carrier, do you have ANY other machine gun parts (as listed in the NFA)? If so, even if it's not installed, you may be looking at federal charges.

IANAL, but from my stand point, it looks like Colt got the OK from the BATF to install M16 Bolt carriers into new weapons purchased from Colt. The rest of us are still breaking NFA law if we do it in the aftermarket.

Personally, would I chance it? Not really, not because I'm afraid that the BATF would knock on my door and request to see my weapons, but because I don't have a reason to have one in my Armalite. My Armalite shoots fine with the standard bolt carrier.

Hardwarz
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G
Thanks for all the paper work.. :)

I was asking because I found a used RRA 16" with a M16 bolt carrier, and that alone made me weary of the purchase. So all said and done. I will stick to what I know is legal, and have some fun.

Thanks again.
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G
mvician said:


Click to expand...
I thought the last paragraph in page 2 is quite interesting. Basically they are saying as long as the BCG won't make the gun fire automatic, it's ok to own (even though in page 1 they say they won't authorize the person to install the auto BCG in an AR). It's the "I won't want you to do it, but if you do, it would be ok as long as you just stop at that" kind of thing.
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G
My 6920 came with an M16 bolt carrier as standard equipment. I bought it through an FFL in good standing with the BATFE and have no worries. I really don't think there is any dark conspiracy to allow us to buy firearms with illegal parts through legal reputable dealers only to come convict us as felons as soon as we take possession and I doubt Colt's QC would allow roughly 100% of the 6920s in the last several months to "slip through" with the wrong bolt carrier by mistake.

If you have the opportunity to buy any brand with the M16 bolt carrier already installed (provided no other auto parts or mods are present), especially if it's thru an FFL, I would not hesitate. Although I agree that we may not "need" it, the argument could be made that we don't "need" the gun either. I would think it adds value to the gun to have an enhanced bolt carrier.

Just my 2 cents...
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G
I could edit the post above, but I do want to
share this favorite by itself. It has lots of info
also -

http://www.subguns.com/

Ed
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mvician said:


Click to expand...
That's more than 2 years old... they've already changed their position 4 times already.

everyone knows ATF letters are only valid for a week following the date on them.:roll:
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Krackels said:
That's more than 2 years old... they've already changed their position 4 times already.

everyone knows ATF letters are only valid for a week following the date on them.:roll:
Click to expand...
No sh*t. And some people want the government to manage our health care?:cool:
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