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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ok with the Debate over who make a better rifle OLY, RRA, LMT ect, ect, ect,

which parts are the most important, to have made by the top names the upper or lower parts,

i have to builds both mounted on DMPS lowers, one is actually a Complete DMPS A2 for my next rifle i am considering using one of my current DMPS lowers and doing a rebuild on its internals and putting a LMT upper.

since the lower will start out as a stripped DMPS lower and will be built with quality internals and the upper will all be made with Quality LMT parts what would make this any different than purchasing a a complete LMT rifle, as both of them are made using forged aluminum lowers. and from what ive seen looking at a few other LMT uppers side by side by DMPS the finish should match pretty dang close in color.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Great question.

As far as the parts. The BCG and LPKs are important. You want to go high end with these parts. You also want a good quality buffer spring. As far as the actual upper and lower, as long as their within spec they should be fine no matter what brand. There are only a few barrel manufacturers if i'm not mistaken. I think most brands use Wilson bbls. See my post "upgrades you need" It answers your question perfectly.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
DPMS complete rifles don't have the best reputation. I cant comment as Ive never owned one. I handled one of their lower end panther models in the store and was not blown away, but it didn't seem like total crap either. They guy was gonna sell it to me for $650. The price was very tempting indeed. We then began to discuss how I'd basically rip it apart if I did purchase it in order to install better quality parts. So I would end up spending more anyway upgrading it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
i was thinking along the lines of a rebuilding my lower using these parts


complete Stag lower parts kit - $69.00


complete LMT upper $485.00


Complete LMT BCG - $129



Midwest Industries 2 piece hand guards - $129


do to being on a limited spending budget after my last purchase, i will probably be purchasing these items a little at a time until i have all the parts.

then i will be saving up for some optics.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
DPMS complete rifles don't have the best reputation. I cant comment as Ive never owned one. I handled one of their lower end panther models in the store and was not blown away, but it didn't seem like total crap either. They guy was gonna sell it to me for $650. The price was very tempting indeed. We then began to discuss how I'd basically rip it apart if I did purchase it in order to install better quality parts. So I would end up spending more anyway upgrading it.

every where i have looked said that DMPS made a very reliable firearm, while at the same time most have said they where better suited for urban use and recreational shooting.

i haven't put a ton of rounds through either of my rifles yet i haven't encountered any problems other than the bolt not locking back upon firing my last shot with the complete DMPS and i am going to contribute that to using cheap ammo.

i can't help but feel that i did ok with it as i traded my pre melonite XD9sc and $150 cash for it. and i was only putting around a $350.00 trade value on the XD due to it having the burnniel finish.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
thanks i believe i am going to go for the upper first, as i will pretty much so have enough for it. on 11/1 and the rest i should be able to swing with out to much recourse from my wife in the next month or two.

after i get the lower kit i will probably need to get with one of the guys on my local board to help me put it all together as i make a terrible gunsmith. heck i can barely shoot them. LOL
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
thanks i believe i am going to go for the upper first, as i will pretty much so have enough for it. on 11/1 and the rest i should be able to swing with out to much recourse from my wife in the next month or two.

after i get the lower kit i will probably need to get with one of the guys on my local board to help me put it all together as i make a terrible gunsmith. heck i can barely shoot them. LOL
Installing LPKs is fun.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
every where i have looked said that DMPS made a very reliable firearm, while at the same time most have said they where better suited for urban use and recreational shooting.
Don't make me post "the list" again :p
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
ok with the Debate over who make a better rifle OLY, RRA, LMT ect, ect, ect,


since the lower will start out as a stripped DMPS lower and will be built with quality internals and the upper will all be made with Quality LMT parts what would make this any different than purchasing a a complete LMT rifle, as both of them are made using forged aluminum lowers.
The difference would be the logo on the lower...

You can't buy a complete LMT rifle unless you are Mil or LEO ;)
You can buy the complete lower and or the complete upper tho and put the 2 pieces together :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The bolt carrier group is the heart of the AR15. Get a quality one, (BravoCompanyUSA, Colt, or LMT). These will all be made from the proper materials, have proper staking on the carrier key, and be fully tested. A good lower parts kit is pretty important, too. I like RRA's. I'd tend to stay away from anything DPMS.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
From anouther sight, I agree with this guy 100%

There seems to be a large number of threads from patriots that are seeking to purchase/build an AR type rifle in some configuration. This post will provide most of the answers to those frequently asked questions.

No doubt this post will be somewhat controversial – as I will invariably step on toes in this process – and for that I apologize up front – but also note that I will not compromise my personal integrity by “holding back” on the truth.

Obviously this post will be focused on “tools” that one could trust one’s life too – this post will not cover AR’s that could be used as “toys” (fun guns for plinking/hunting/target shooting/etc.)

We will start with the characteristics of what it is we are looking for in an AR tool – then we will discuss the manufacturers that are making what we want – followed by those that are making close to what we want. If the manufacturer is not listed in this post – I will not trust my life to it – PERIOD. ALL other manufacturers – make “toys”.

The three MOST important parts of the AR are the barrel, bolt and bolt carrier. Consider this – the chamber pressure in an AR when it fires is 50,000 PSI – that is a force of TWENTY FIVE TONS per square inch - and this is near your face! We only want the highest quality parts to contain those high pressure explosions that occur every time we touch off a round.

OK – the barrel assy. We want:

1. Barrel made from 4150 steel
2. Chrome lined chamber and bore
3. 5.56mm chamber
4. Manganese Phosphate coating under the front sight base
5. Forged front sight assy
6. MagParticle inspected
7. 1x7” twist

The Bolt:

1. Buy the bolt from one of the Tier Three or above manufacturers listed below.

The Bolt Carrier:

1. MagParticle inspected
2. Covered Firing Pin
3. Solid “rear”
4. Properly staked gas key
5. Chrome lined “cylinder” (where the gas rings on the bolt interface with the bolt carrier)

Upper receiver:

1. Forged 7075 T6 construction (not cast)
2. Mil-Spec “true” M1913 rails (if flat top)
3. Mil-Spec anodizing AFTER M4 ramps are cut
4. Mil-Spec small parts (forward assist, ejection port cover, etc.)

Lower receiver:

1. Forged 7075 T6 construction
2. Mil-Spec internals (no “target” or “match grade” parts)



Now let’s look at manufacturers. There are only TWO manufacturers that are independently checked/tested to ensure they build “mil-spec” M series longarms (M16A2 and M4). These two manufacturers are Colt and FN. The US government inspectors ensure they build rifles to the spec.

There are other manufacturers that build to the “mil-spec” – but they do so willfully – and are not independently inspected to the spec. Some manufacturers build to the exact spec – some build to portions of the spec – some don’t build to the spec at all.

The first category is what we will call TIER ONE manufacturers and are the ONLY two that build to the spec and are independently verified. They are:

1. COLT (only the military/LE rifles – the civy “Target” models are not built to the spec)
2. FN

Then next category is “Tier Two” - those manufactures that build to the exact spec – but aren’t verified by US gov inspectors:

1. LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool)
2. BMC (Bravo Machine Company)

Tier Three are companies that build to the spec – but don’t shoot a “proof” round through each barrel before it is MagParticle inspected – they MagPart inspect a percentage of barrels from each lot.

1. CMMG
2. Sabre Defense (this information is confirmed for their "government contour" barrels only)

Tier Four are companies that have 1x7" chrome lined, 5.56 chambers, Proof and Mag Particle every barrel, but do not Parkerized under the Front Sight Base.

1. LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool)

Tier Five companies build close to the spec – but don’t have 1x7” barrel twist – don’t shoot a proof load through each barrel (they – like CMMG above – inspect a percentage of barrels from each lot) and don’t Manganese Phosphate coat the barrel under the front sight base:

1. Bushmaster

Tier Six

This company USED to be in the next Tier down - but is has broken from the pack below and now uses 4150 steel barrels - chrome lined. To my knowledge they don't "proof" their barrels, batch or individually - so they aren't quite up with BM - but - they are better than they were!

1. Armalite


Tier SevenThese other manufacturers use sub-standard barrel material (4140) – chambers that may or may not be 5.56 – in short – they are rifles that are build under the standard. Having said that – these “Tier Six” companies do build some quality rifles – just understand – that according the “Spec” – which is how we must judge AR’s – these are further “sub-par” than any of the Tier Four and up. The following companies are not listed in any particular order:


1. Stag Arms
2. Smith and Wesson (Stag)
3. CMT (which makes Stag and S&W)
4. Rock River Arms (RRA)
5. DPMS

Then there is the Tier Eight companies – which I wouldn’t recommend to anyone. The Tier Six companies are any AR manufacturer that is not listed above. Note that many “parts house’s” use AR parts made by one of the above manufacturers – but they also buy parts made from “who knows??” – and is not something I would willingly put my life on the line with…..would you??

So – armed with the above information – I would suggest the following. Buy the assembled upper from any of the Tier Three and up manufacturers.

Buy ANY stripped lower receiver made by any Tier 6 and above manufacturers.

Get all lower receiver parts (actually all small parts) from any Tier 5 and above manufacturer.

Buy bolts/bolt carriers/barrels from any Tier Three and above manufacturer.

If you prefer to go down to your local gun store and just buy a rifle – the only real choice to buy a rifle closest to the “Spec” is our only Tier Four manufacturer – which is Bushmaster.

RRA, Armalite, Stag, et al – all build quality rifles – but they aren’t built even close to the same standard that the Tier Three (and arguably Tier Four) and above companies do.

Hope this helps,

cheers

tire iron

edited on Jany 16 2007 in blue

edited on March 14, 2007 in green

edited on April 12, 2007 in orange
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Did your local store buy uppers and lowers and then put them together ?
Just curious, because I haven't heard of LMT selling complete yet.

I dont think so - its not that kind of store. Its like a cabela's type store. Next time Im there I will ask. They are selling them for about $1100-$1250
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
:roll:

The "tier system" is pure folly. I've never even seen the example listed above. It's a new and "improved" one to me. There are some questionable manufacturers (Olympic comes to mind), but the example given by beaterar is seriously flawed.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I dont think so - its not that kind of store. Its like a cabela's type store. Next time Im there I will ask. They are selling them for about $1100-$1250

WOW.....you can snap the upper and lower together yourself for WAY less than that. ;)
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
"they – like CMMG above – inspect a percentage of barrels from each lot"

"
and magnetic particle testing on every barrel."-from the cmmg web site
 
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