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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thanks to all for the rail help; they shipped today!! Wife confirmed though, I have to wait until Christmas to open them. S**T. :sad:

Now, for my last big expense...for a while. I'm selling my P3AT to fund an optic, and I'm 99% sure I want an Aimpoint, and I think I know which, but give me opinions. I just want a good optic that doesn't have to have tons of fancy stuff on it, but is good for holding zero and killing zombies. Oh, and NV isn't gonna happen, so I don't need that compatibility. Is the ML2 what I'm looking for then? Seems to fit to me.

I know jack shat about optics...the only scope I have is a cheap-o-came-with-my-.22-Barska. With that being said...

I don't know wtf "MOA" is, and of what concern is it to me? What's "Eye relief" and "Parallax?" (sp?) Is there a link to a site that has all of this stuff for me to browse through? If there is great, but if anyone takes the time to explain it all, THANKS!!

Mounts... I like the look of the cantilever mounts. Just looks neat-o to me. I heard it was designed to move the optic away from the BUIS, but is there any other purpose to have, or to NOT have one?

I don't really have any place to shoot over 100 yds, if that makes a difference.

Lastly, anyone know who currently has the best price on them? So far, it looks like SKD Tactical has the best prices, but they're out of stock. I'm trying not to spend a ridiculous about, but I know that they will be at least $350+. :cool:
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ask, and ye shall receive! ;)

They plug Bushnell scopes a lot on that page, but the terminology and technology hold true no matter the maker of the optic.
Hey, Hooz, nice linky! Thanks a lot, good info. ;)

ETA: Got to bottom of the page and still haven't found "MOA." Is that "Minute of Aim" or something like that? Thought I heard that before somewhere... still, don't know what it means, lol.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Actually a true "minute-of-angle" is a little more than an inch (exactly 1.047197580733" ;)) at 100 yards. It's a moot point if we're talking 100 yards, but it's almost a 10.5" difference at 1000 yards.

Put on your thinking cap and click here.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Actually a true "minute-of-angle" is a little more than an inch (exactly 1.047197580733" ;)) at 100 yards. It's a moot point if we're talking 100 yards, but it's almost a 10.5" difference at 1000 yards.

Put on your thinking cap and click here.

If you're doing shooting with a red dot at 1000 yds, 10.5 inches isn't going to be much of a difference. :p
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Buy used on ARFCOM.. Mounting is a preference. I like an absolute co-witness with my CQB optics because training is better and when switching to irons there isn't a shift in cheek weld, not that it's a lot, but it's another training step. With my Aimpoint I tried both an absolute co-witness and then a lower 1/3rd. Went to the lower 3rd because I added a magnifier and didn't want to change the mount it was in. Honestly I've got EOTechs only now and that's because at a shorter distance the EOT was far easier to use than the AP. For the 100m + shots the AP was easier... until I added the magnifier to the EOTechs and now I'm just as pleased as can be. Even if they are set for the lower 3rd co-witness.

When I had my AP in a lower mount, I just used a Burris X-treme 30mm ring (just one) and it worked like a champ. The canteleaver mounts allow for a few things... first it does move the optic forward, but with a forend rail, that isn't an issue, but it also makes room for a magnifier and does raise the optic above the same plane as the irons.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
If you want an aimpoint, why not get a SPOT MKIII aimpoint clone scope? I have read really good reviews on them about taking a beating and holding zero. Plus you could take the extra money and buy a knockoff magnifier and mount. It doesn't sound like you need something battle ready, just something good that will do the job. The SPOT goes for about $150.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The differences between the SPOT and AP are truly noticed in the quality of the glass and secondarily the body.

Something else to consider is the DMS-1, great reviews, gives you 1-4x variable magnification and the reviews are excellent. It's on my list for the next optic.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The differences between the SPOT and AP are truly noticed in the quality of the glass and secondarily the body.

Something else to consider is the DMS-1, great reviews, gives you 1-4x variable magnification and the reviews are excellent. It's on my list for the next optic.
I bought a Millet DMS-1 a while ago... The BEST CQB optic system there is (IMNSHO ;)). And the price ($230ish) is hard to beat.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The differences between the SPOT and AP are truly noticed in the quality of the glass and secondarily the body.

Something else to consider is the DMS-1, great reviews, gives you 1-4x variable magnification and the reviews are excellent. It's on my list for the next optic.
Paid $240 for mine shipped from Midway. Best value in optics ever.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Here is my canned answer for this:

1-4x optic (IOR, Millet, Nightforce, Horus, Leupold, etc):
I use to think these were the best of all worlds but now I am thinking they are just a compromise. All 1-4x optic are bulky and kinda cumbersome. There is really only 2 settings you use it on, 1x and 4x. In 1x mode they don't have infininate eye relief like an Aimpoint or Eotech. But then again, if you know where your cheeks got to be you don't need that infininate eye relief. In 4x mode they beat an ACOG in the eye relief dept, but that's it. ACOG's have larger field of views than all 1-4x optics, and ACOGs are a helll of a lot more durable.



Aimpoint:
I have the ML2 with 4 MOA dot. The more I use it the more I like it. There are some draw backs though, In bright sunlight, the dot is hard to see, and in quick CQB situatations, it takes a little more concentration to notice the dot than the ring of the Eotech. For longer distances, such as anything past 100 yards, the dot is too big and just floods the whole target. Kinda like the way irons do. If you are use to shooting irons this is no big deal but for me I like my target to be bigger than my site. The Aimpoint may have some weaknesses but overall it is still a great optic. It is bombproof, waterproof to 60ft, and you can leave it on for a whole year before batteries run out (5 years if you get the ML3). If you get one you will like it.


Eotech:
Nothing is faster than a Eotech. That 65 MOA ring makes it effortless for CQB. For long distance shooting the 1 MOA center dot is great for precision work. For CQB nothing beats an Eotech. For distances, Eotech easily beats out the Aimpoint. Draw back to Eotech is battery life. Eotech claims 1100 hours, but I am seeing more like 200 hours for alkaline batteries. Also Eotech claims the Eotech is only water proof to 10 ft, while Aimpoint claims 75 feet, but I have not thrown either in the water to confirm. Lastly the Aimpoint just seems better built (but this is purely speculation on my part, time will tell).


4X ACOG:
I like magnification and for me nothing gets better for an M4 than an ACOG. Even if you have eagle eyes, there are things you can see at 50 yards with mag that you will not be able to see with the Naked eye. ACOG has large field of view, a compact package, uses no batteries, and is durable as hell. ACOG's work great for anything past 25 yards. For such a compact package, you also get decent magnification. Once you use the glass on an ACOG, it is hard to go back to anything else. ACOG's don't work that great for CQB, but the way I have my M4 set up, I have a laser pointer (TLR2) for anything 25 yards or less. Some think a visible laser is kinda mall ninjaish... but I like them. My favorite ACOG so far is the TA11 series with BAC because of the longer eye relief and BAC makes the thing very fast.



ACOG with DOC optic.
I sampled a DOC optic on top of an ACOG at a gun show. To me this is truly the best of all worlds. The eye relief of a DOC is infinate like an Aimpoint. Only thing I question about the DOC, is I am not sure if it is as durable as an Eotech, Aimpoint, or even the ACOG it sits on.


High Powered optic such as a 3.5-10X Leupold:
Just like my variable optic, I only use it on 2 settings. At 3.5x and at 10x. Most of the time I just use it at the lowest setting but it is nice to have the 10x capability as it is always nice to be able to identify targets at 300 yards. However, this is way too much scope for an M4, way too heavy, and just way overkill.



Aimpoint/Eotech + magnifier:
I don't own one magnifier so really can't get too in depth about this. However, to me this option is also somewhat of a compromise. I got to try this setup once and notice the glass was not that clear and I have seen cheap $200 optics with much better glass quality. The Magnifier itself was not the problem, nor the Aimpoint.. it is when you put both of them together. Also another drawback of this set up is it weighs a ton.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
4X ACOG:
I like magnification and for me nothing gets better for an M4 than an ACOG. Even if you have eagle eyes, there are things you can see at 50 yards with mag that you will not be able to see with the Naked eye. ACOG has large field of view, a compact package, uses no batteries, and is durable as hell. ACOG's work great for anything past 25 yards. For such a compact package, you also get decent magnification. Once you use the glass on an ACOG, it is hard to go back to anything else. ACOG's don't work that great for CQB, but the way I have my M4 set up, I have a laser pointer (TLR2) for anything 25 yards or less. Some think a visible laser is kinda mall ninjaish... but I like them. My favorite ACOG so far is the TA11 series with BAC because of the longer eye relief and BAC makes the thing very fast.



ACOG with DOC optic.
I sampled a DOC optic on top of an ACOG at a gun show. To me this is truly the best of all worlds. The eye relief of a DOC is infinate like an Aimpoint. Only thing I question about the DOC, is I am not sure if it is as durable as an Eotech, Aimpoint, or even the ACOG it sits on.


I've got the TA31DOC and I love it. I didn't know how I'd like the cheek weld when using the Docter red dot, but at the ranges I'd use the Docter at it's all instinctive positioning of the gun, the Docter just shows me exactly where I'm aiming. If you've got the cash, IMO you can't beat a ACOG with Docter optic.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The Magnifier itself was not the problem, nor the Aimpoint.. it is when you put both of them together. Also another drawback of this set up is it weighs a ton.
+1 Amen to that!

Don't get me wrong I really like this type of setup, too - very fast & gives you options! You don't notice the added weight too much when handling for shots, but carry it around it for an extended period and you'll wish you'd have a lighter setup. Whenever I strip my rail and shoot w/ irons, it feels like a little slice of heaven.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
DMS GenII and a LaRue SPR-E is on it's way to my house.

I can't wait.

For range fun and 3 Gun I don't think I will find a cheaper or more effective setup.
 
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