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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I went shooting today and thought I did really well with my DPMS 16" with NCstar scope, crappy bipod, and wolf ammo. I was shooting about 4" groups +/- .5" at 100yds. I thought this was good, but I'm reading on some sites that <2" groups is the "norm." What do you consider a good grouping?
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
1"-2" MOA is pretty normal with good ammo. A good group would be a quarter, a real good group a nickel and an and excellent group a dime. The AR platform is capable of all those.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
SO if I invest in something other than Wolf, I might improve on the grouping? I think I'll try to get my Wolf groups down to 3" and then I'll get me some better ammo.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Printing good groups is a function with a lot of variables. Wolf aint the best, but unless you've got a gross twist rate/bullet weight mismatch or your scope is shifting zero on you, I'm gonna bet the slightly larger than normal groups are (no offense) end user error.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
my gun is more accurate than i can shoot for sure. I shot some remington cheapo ammo and when i switched to black hills the groups tightened up a noticeable amount.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Well, it is hard to know what you are really doing if you don't have good ammo. You could be holding 1 MOA and hitting 4" groups if the ammo isn't good. In that instance practice won't help shrink the group. A couple hundred rounds of Black Hills 52 Grn Match Hp's would be a good investment if you want to see how good you are really doing. You don't have to shoot them all up, you can just shoot them over time to test how your skill is coming along. You can use the cheapo ammo to and just focus on the fundamentals of executing the shot, don't worry so much about the hits, just the technique.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I think I'll try to get my Wolf groups down to 3"
You are already at the limit of Wolf accuracy, 3"-4" groups. Cheap ammo, cheap results. Get your hands on a few rounds of match ammo, and a better scope, and see what happens.:)
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
With my 16" varmint rifle I have been getting little under .750" with 5 shot groups with hand loads. I have some 3 shot groups with 60gr V max @ .500

Just for kicks one time I figured I would try some wolf, I was getting 3" groups - it was amazing the difference.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Isn't the Wolf Ammo laquer coated? The reason I ask is that I've been told that laquer coated ammo can leave deposits in the chamber eventually ruining the upper part of the rifle.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Come on guys, this is 100yrds... most of us than throw rocks into a 4" group at that range.

I'd bet that if you really focused on the fundamentals .. breathing, sight picture, positioning and setting yourself up behind the rifle correctly in addition to good trigger control (read Ed's recent post about that), and you can pull those groups down to sub 2 MOA at 100yrds.

Wolf ain't great, but it isn't like it's someone home grown BS hand loads. Yes, if you get a higher quality ammo, you can do much better.

Post a picture of the target, that will tell for sure if we're looking at some shooter issues or ammo issues.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Limiting factors:
1. Stock trigger- most factory AR's have a 6-7 lb trigger
2. Wolf Ammo- 3-4 moa average
3. Cheap scope/Mount- allows too much movement.
4. Cheap bipod-not a stable platform

Add up all the variables and I'd be pretty happy to shoot less than 4 moa. A trigger job, ARMS or other quality scope mount, decent optics, harris bipod and black hills ammo and groups will be less than half that size. The better quality stuff costs more but will cause fewer problems and will pay for itself in durability and length of service. The fouling with wolf has more to do with the steel cases not expanding to fit the chamber and allowing the gasses to flow around the case than the polymer coating.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
With Gold Medal Match, off sanbags and a bench my plain ole Bushmaster can do 2". Same set up but with Surplus ammo or Wolf I get about 4". I have been told my Noveske can do sub-moa (less than 1") with Federal Gold Medal Match, but I have never confirmed this.

It's a 16" M4. If you can shoot minute of man (about 19" at 100 yards) off hand then you are a champ. :mrgreen:
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
i dont think thats a bad group but there are ALOT of variables
just to name a few
your scope
your trigger
the weather
the ammo
weather your barrel is stainless, chrome lined or chrome molly
the way your scope is mounted (are you getting and keeping a good cheak weld) and how well that scope can hold a zero.
and last but definitly not least is your skill and control
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Isn't the Wolf Ammo laquer coated? The reason I ask is that I've been told that laquer coated ammo can leave deposits in the chamber eventually ruining the upper part of the rifle.

let me guess, the person who said this was tring to sell you some nice brass cased stuff for 3x as much?
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Isn't the Wolf Ammo lacquer coated? The reason I ask is that I've been told that lacquer coated ammo can leave deposits in the chamber eventually ruining the upper part of the rifle.
This myth of lacquer buildup has been debunked over and over again.

The problem is that the soft steel cases don't expand and seal the chamber as well as softer brass does, so carbon gets cooked onto the chamber walls, and can create a stoppage or stuck case from the buildup. The lacquer or polymer coating is not the problem.

I shoot Wolf polymer coated ammo in my 5.56 chambered Bushmaster AR, I even reload the steel cases. I have had no reliability issues with any ammo yet, factory or my own reloads.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
This myth of lacquer buildup has been debunked over and over again.

The problem is that the soft steel cases don't expand and seal the chamber as well as softer brass does, so carbon gets cooked onto the chamber walls, and can create a stoppage or stuck case from the buildup. The lacquer or polymer coating is not the problem.

I shoot Wolf polymer coated ammo in my 5.56 chambered Bushmaster AR, I even reload the steel cases. I have had no reliability issues with any ammo yet, factory or my own reloads.
Who's die set are you using ???? I understand that not all of them hold up with steel.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
SO if I invest in something other than Wolf, I might improve on the grouping? I think I'll try to get my Wolf groups down to 3" and then I'll get me some better ammo.
You might want to look into some of Blackhills' remanufactured .223.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
A lot of it is getting comfortable with your rifle as others have mentioned. I just took my new bolt-action 30.06 out the other day with some good ammo and found that I had better groups with my AR. I still need to get more comfortable with it. It should out-perform my AR.
 
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