Why did tactical teams move to the .223?

The mp5 is a 9mm. A .223 doesn't over penetrate as much as you might think it would.

Yes, the MP5 is a 9mm and is also offered in a 10mm and .40 S&W.

So .223 does not over penetrate?

Correction: WAS offered in 10mm/.40...

not anymore it isn't.

The MP5/10 and MP5/40 where discontinued in 2000 in favor of the HK UMP


Either way...
I didn't know agencies were switching calibers/weapon systems to .223 calibered systems.

Well it seems that every ad I see showing a SWAT team everyone now has an AR based weapon. Are you saying their ARs are chambered in 9mm?

The AR series of rifles are starting to show up in more and more households as a HD weapon. It seems as though if you can obtain a fast enough muzzle velocity the round will tumble after hitting something and loose energy fast resulting in less penetration.

We are doing the same thing you speak of. I still handle my MP5 everyday but it's a work in process. If it were up to me we would have UMP45's considering in a close quarters environment you won't be taking shots over 25M, IMOP.

lobster_roboto said:

Either way...
I didn't know agencies were switching calibers/weapon systems to .223 calibered systems.

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The FBI has conducted studies that prove that .223 is superior to pistol caliber carbines (including 10mm MP5's) in most aspects, including potential injury to innocent bystanders.

That is why they are switching over...

1st let me say i am NOT an expert
ok a 223 in FMJ often penitrates less then a 9mm(if its a FMJ) i have no clue about JHPs when you look at ballist gel tests (sorry i dont have any links, youll just have to try and find it yourself) the 223 when it hits water or gel mostly brakes up or tumbles causeing a huge perment cavity when compared to a 9mm. and it also allows you to take long range shots and you also have the power to punch through barriers and armor better then a 9mm

The main reason as I understand it is that more and more the bad guys are using body armor and the 9mm just can't defeat it.

the FBI's testing along with some firearms mfg's have determined that when fired from a short bbl, 223 is actually a good cqb round. It can penetrate body armor, and it develops enough velocity to create a ballistic wound channel, which is the tissue damage done simply from the ballistic pressure wave which is the shockwave generated by the bullet entering the body, significantly larger than that of pistol caliber rounds and thus has a higher probability of a knockdown shot. This is only from a short bbl rifle such as an 11" bbl. Beyond that, there is still plenty of time for the powder charge to develop the pressure and continue accelerating the bullet to points where through wall penetration and over pentration of the body, which will transfer less of the bullets energy to the target, becomes an issue.

Isn't Hornady's Tap .223 ammo made to break apart on impact with hard surfaces. From what I remember it was made with home defense in mind. Personally if I can't handle it with my handgun some serious stuff has hit the fan! That does not mean it won't happen, look at New Orleans. Well that is if the local law enforcement doesn't confiscate it.

I found some information on the TAP ammo:
http://www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm

I would also guess a semi-auto AR15 is a LOT cheaper than an MP5, to say nothing of the needed knock-down power in a police SHTF situation.

If you are carrying a rifle, carry a RIFLE.

Verk said:

The main reason as I understand it is that more and more the bad guys are using body armor and the 9mm just can't defeat it.

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It probably was inspired, at least in part, by the North Hollywood shootout, where police were outgunned and the BGs had body armor.

Tard said:

...If you are carrying a rifle, carry a RIFLE.

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Agreed.

ChrisChris said:

Well it seems that every ad I see showing a SWAT team everyone now has an AR based weapon. Are you saying their ARs are chambered in 9mm?

Click to expand...

You should be thinking that the ad agency probably doesn't know what a swat team does anyway.

The steel penetrator in the milspec ammo is designed to upset the bullet upon penetration and cause it to "yaw". When it does so, the bullets breaks apart.

I think there is a big benefit to a .223 over a 9mm in a tactical siuation. Like aiformula said, permanent wound channels do not happen with low velocity pistol ammo.

ichy_trigger said:

The steel penetrator in the milspec ammo is designed to upset the bullet upon penetration and cause it to "yaw". When it does so, the bullets breaks apart.

I think there is a big benefit to a .223 over a 9mm in a tactical siuation. Like aiformula said, permanent wound channels do not happen with low velocity pistol ammo.

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The fragmenting of the steel penetrator SS109 is not unique, it's not even just a .223 thing... 55gr M193 yaws and fragments as well, along with many other .223 offerings and in other calibers as well.

The biggest factors are bullet construction (but a variety of different types of bullets can fragment, including FMJ, OTM, HP, etc...), jacket thickness, and speed.

The MP5 is a decent gun but it lacks many of the features one gets with a AR15. No last shot bolt hold open, inferior sights, its not near as modular, lacks the push button mag drop, the military uses the AR15 so the supply of parts and accessories is steady. LEO Dept can buy the old A1 AR15s from the >gov for $15 bucks a pop and a small bit of paperwork.

Basically there is nothing the MP5 can do that the AR15 cant.